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C- betting C- betting

07-12-2017 , 08:55 AM
So trying to play less tight, Ive been trying to C bet more, while also trying to avoid the trap where people can exploit it.
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07-12-2017 , 08:58 AM
What exactly is your question?
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07-12-2017 , 09:06 AM
How often should I C bet generally?
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07-12-2017 , 11:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkrusenews
How often should I C bet generally?
In general, C betting is expected these days and many people give C bets less credit than they used to. It's almost expected that any PFR will Cbet on any strong board to continue to represent the story they have told so far, so many people have adapted to calling a Cbet on any board they feel they have an advantage with. This includes draws, middle pairs with strong kickers, and

With C betting though, you want to be aware of the story you are telling through the hand. A PFR from MP who gets two callers is going to look really suspicious if they check when the board comes Axx. A check from there polarizes your range to either something really strong, or something that a single A can beat and most people will be aware of this. In our above situation, it's almost better to Cbet in the above situation with hands like KK-TT because it continues to represent strength and masks the real strength of your hand. However, be aware that (as stated above) people will expect a Cbet on a large number of flops for a large % of the time, so calling a cbet from a PFR doesn't necessarily mean too much.

In later position, your Cbetting strength becomes stronger. Being a Button or Cutoff raiser who comes over two limpers shows strength and if the flop comes Axx and is checked over to you, you can Cbet with more confidence that you will probably take it down. Still be aware that thinking players will expect a Cbet from a PFR and sometimes bet a strong flop out of position expecting to take it down. You have to be able to put people on hands and read situations and players to successfully solve these positions, but generally speaking Cbets from later positions tend to have more strength than Cbets from earlier positions.

All in all, there is no real hard % to your question and like almost everything in poker the real answer is "it depends". If you are looking for some numbers, I would say Cbet around 65%-75% of the time, but that number is grossly dependent upon your table, players, image, and stakes.

Good Luck
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07-12-2017 , 12:03 PM
If you are playing less tight, do you think the average strength of your hand on the flop is higher or lower than when you played more tight?

If you think your average holding is weaker, do you think it would be a good idea to cbet more?
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07-12-2017 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
If you are playing less tight, do you think the average strength of your hand on the flop is higher or lower than when you played more tight?

If you think your average holding is weaker, do you think it would be a good idea to cbet more?
I'm not sure. I get away with more bluffs, because people who know me know I'm tight. But I feel like I have to play tight in 1/2... I know my sessions have been porfitable, but many times, if I rasie something q10 suited from the highjack, get two callers and Cbet on 8 2 K board or something I take more pots down.
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07-12-2017 , 02:31 PM
TBH, I still don't understand what you would like to know.

Based on the contents of your posts, it seems you would like to play more aggressive (postflop), not less tight (preflop)?

Easy math example of what it means to play less tight and cbet more:
Before, you raised 15% of your hands and cbet 50% of those. That means on average, you cbet every 13 hands the table plays.
Now, you raise 25% of your hands and cbet 75% of those. That means on average, you cbet every 5 hands the table plays.

So by playing less tight and cbetting more, you cbet 2.6 times as often. That's a lot more often than before.
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07-12-2017 , 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjhpmc
In general, C betting is expected these days and many people give C bets less credit than they used to. It's almost expected that any PFR will Cbet on any strong board to continue to represent the story they have told so far, so many people have adapted to calling a Cbet on any board they feel they have an advantage with. This includes draws, middle pairs with strong kickers, and

With C betting though, you want to be aware of the story you are telling through the hand. A PFR from MP who gets two callers is going to look really suspicious if they check when the board comes Axx. A check from there polarizes your range to either something really strong, or something that a single A can beat and most people will be aware of this. In our above situation, it's almost better to Cbet in the above situation with hands like KK-TT because it continues to represent strength and masks the real strength of your hand. However, be aware that (as stated above) people will expect a Cbet on a large number of flops for a large % of the time, so calling a cbet from a PFR doesn't necessarily mean too much.

In later position, your Cbetting strength becomes stronger. Being a Button or Cutoff raiser who comes over two limpers shows strength and if the flop comes Axx and is checked over to you, you can Cbet with more confidence that you will probably take it down. Still be aware that thinking players will expect a Cbet from a PFR and sometimes bet a strong flop out of position expecting to take it down. You have to be able to put people on hands and read situations and players to successfully solve these positions, but generally speaking Cbets from later positions tend to have more strength than Cbets from earlier positions.

All in all, there is no real hard % to your question and like almost everything in poker the real answer is "it depends". If you are looking for some numbers, I would say Cbet around 65%-75% of the time, but that number is grossly dependent upon your table, players, image, and stakes.
For contemporary online games much of ^ this ^ is quite wrong.

Soft live games probably still play quite loose pre and fit-or-fold post though, so the strategy in those is probably to still c-bet at a high frequency, especially if you're tight pre-flop.
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07-12-2017 , 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly
For contemporary online games much of ^ this ^ is quite wrong.
Since we are all learning here, what about the post is wrong and what would we do to make it right?
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07-12-2017 , 05:07 PM
I've been playing a little 5NLz on Ignition and I c-bet flop about 45% IP and 35% OOP. I understand this is quite a bit less than other players, but it has been working for me so far. My sample is small at only around 8000 hands.

You should be checking a lot OOP, IMO. IP calling ranges are designed to play well against the opener's range, so you'll be at a range disadvantage on many boards despite having the uncapped pre-flop range. I rarely c-bet without at least a backdoor draw OOP unless the board favors my range heavily.
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07-13-2017 , 01:01 AM
Live player here. Personally, heads up out of position or out of position against 2 players I just check my entire range on the flop if I think that I'm facing opponents who are somewhat competent. If I have some equity, even just 2 overs, I will call if someone leads into me and check the turn. If they check turn I will lead the river with air pretty often expecting to take it down. The fact that I'm checking the flop so often out of position allows me to get away with this because I am doing the same thing with strong and weak holdings. All of this depends on board texture of course but this is my basic strategy to approaching the flop out of position.

If I flop strong enough OOP against weaker players and think I can get their entire stack I will bet out with the intent to either 3 barrel or get it in on the turn.

In position I cbet 40-60% pot at a fairly high frequency. Against fit or fold villians my cbet% is almost 100%, doesn't matter if they never exploit me for it.
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07-13-2017 , 07:10 AM
I just feel as Im easy to expolit.

The hardest for me is when theres a manic on my left. Last time I was at the casino. This guy who I wasn't getting along with, stole a lot pots off me. I had a winning session, but after i moved tables.
I moved to a 1/2 table that had been a 2/5 table so there were a lot big stacks. I would shove with hands like TPTK and get called by draws and stuffs. (its easy to call an $80 shove when you have $700 stack I guess) and it worked.
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07-13-2017 , 09:25 AM
For the purpose of the question, I'm going to assume that we're talking about situations where we've raised preflop, but still don't have a made hand on the flop (or we have a weak made hand, like a small or middle pair). Here are some of my guidelines for c-betting in live poker in a typical 1/2NL game:

1. C-bet the vast majority of the time when the flop is taken heads up.

2. Rarely c-bet when the flop is taken with 4 or more players.

3. When heads up or 3-way, c-bet board textures that are hard to hit, especially where the highest card is below a 10. Thus, flops like 7 7 3, 8 6 2, and 9 4 5 are good for c-betting. These boards aren't particularly threatening and present good opportunities to double-barrel on the turn if a A-J falls on the turn (the overcard gives the caller with a middle pair yet another reason to let go of his hand).

4. I mostly do not c-bet when the top card is a J, and I c-bet only slightly more frequently when the top card is a Q. To me, there's a big difference between an 8-high board and a J-high board. Players with middle pairs are more likely to believe that you have an over pair when the flop is 8-high, plus there are lots of overcards that can fall on the turn that further weaken the value of an opponent's middle pair. But players are reluctant to give you credit for a really big hand when the top card is a J or Q (essentially you're representing AA, KK, or a set), and any other face cards that fall simply increase the risk that you'll run into a two-pair hand or better.

5. I c-bet most A-high flops when heads up, but slightly less frequently when 3-way. Against a LAG opponent or two, betting an A-high flop is sound because they have so many middle pairs, two broadway cards, and suited/connected cards in their range. If there is a tight, passive opponent with me on the flop, I'll c-bet way less frequently because their range includes many more Ax hands.

6. I c-bet a lot, even multiway, when I flop a pair, or when I have a big drawing hand. So if I've raised preflop in position with 78s, and the flop is Q 8 6, I'll c-bet that flop. Also, if I've raised preflop with AhKh and the flop is Th 9h 5s, I'll c-bet that flop, too, and be willing to call a raise with my big draw. Likewise, if I've raised with Ah6h and the flop is Kh 6c Th, I'll c-bet and be willing to call a raise with a pair, flush draw, and an overcard in my hand. The point with all of these hands is that you have decent to very good equity, even when you are called.

7. One more thing: if you're going to c-bet, make a solid bet, especially if you're OOP in a multiway pot. I see so many players who raise to $12 before the flop, get 3-4 callers, and then bet $15-$20 into a $50-$60 pot. If I'm playing against that player in position relative to the rest of the field, I raise that weak lead a lot, and it's EV+. If you're following my guidelines above, you won't be c-betting with air in a 4-way or 5-way pot, but if you choose to make the play, make a decent bet that doesn't scream weakness.

Those are my guidelines. I make adjustments based on the profiles of the players who call preflop and my own image on that particular day.

Last edited by mxp2004; 07-13-2017 at 09:55 AM.
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07-13-2017 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjhpmc
Since we are all learning here, what about the post is wrong and what would we do to make it right?
Online c-betting frequencies have tumbled to nearer to 50% (mine is a touch lower than that), and the strategies for OOP and IP are quite different. Players are much better at picking the best combos to bet and check, since they are more aware of concepts like equity realization, backdoor potential, bluffcatching, protecting their ranges, the risk of being check-raised etc. A couple of years ago, I would have thought it was crazy to check back a flush draw, because I was taught "always bet your draws". In 2017, that old advice is no longer so accurate.
e.g. If you open A2s on the button and the flop comes A95r, then 5 or 6 years ago, most players would c-bet it for over half pot, because it was "instantly profitable". These days, it's still instantly profitable to c-bet in that spot, but all good players check back with top pair no kicker, or bet tiny, because that's even more profitable.
Similarly, if the board is A93cc, then most people would think QTcc is a slam-dunk c-bet. But it's likely that most of your queen-high flush draws are GTO check backs.

I should reiterate that live games are another kettle of fish entirely. If the BB calls pre with all kinds of junk because he's bored and just wants to see a flop, you can and should still c-bet at a high frequency, both for value or as a bluff.

Last edited by ArtyMcFly; 07-13-2017 at 10:43 AM.
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