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Old 02-03-2016, 05:03 PM   #1
rickroll
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Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

I've been looking for this information but can't seem to find it anywhere.

My thinking is that the information is clearly out there, it's just a matter of sifting through it to find out.

I understand the concept but I'm thinking there has got to be a cutoff point. Obviously you won't stop and go with AA but then I find a lot of people advocating it with QQ whereas with that I don't see much value. You'll only get hands to fold that you'd very likely have beaten anyway barring situations like KT and A6 and that overcard pairs on turn or river.

If anyone knows of any resources for this I would be very interested in it.

Thanks
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Old 02-03-2016, 05:29 PM   #2
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

It makes much more sense to stopngo AA than QQ because it's less vulnerable.
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Old 02-03-2016, 08:04 PM   #3
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

Wouldn't shoving AA make more sense because the villian wouldn't raise to you if he wasn't prepared to call your shove?
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Old 02-04-2016, 12:59 AM   #4
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
Wouldn't shoving AA make more sense because the villian wouldn't raise to you if he wasn't prepared to call your shove?
stopngo situations are where he would call the shove no matter what, so yeah I mean any hands that are strong such as AA and QQ can just be shoved pre

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It makes much more sense to stopngo AA than QQ because it's less vulnerable.
yeah, except for certain ICM situations...ICM sometimes wants you to stopngo QQ and open jam flops w/no overcard...that must be what OP is referring to
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:08 PM   #5
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

QQ or even JJ are too strong for typical stop and go play.

You use the stop and go OOP (usual on the BB) with a middle pair when you're facing a raise in what would normally be push/fold mode.

The idea is to call the raise and shove any non ace flop. This protects you when an A flops and the raiser would've called your shove with most of the As in his range.

In typical Stop and go situations pairs > 99 usually have good equity shoving vs the open raiser's range, so there's little need for an alternate line.
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Old 02-04-2016, 01:26 PM   #6
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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In typical Stop and go situations pairs > 99 usually have good equity shoving vs the open raiser's range, so there's little need for an alternate line.
I get that but I find it odd given how much math involved in poker and places like this, there is no study on optimal stop n go play. I mean what about AT, you're probably ahead yet still at best 60/40 in a showdown. At which point do the odds you both miss the flop and they fold to the shove on flop for a guaranteed pot outweigh losing you +EV if you have the better hand preflop? If you think about it, the stop & go could actually backfire - let's say you got a weak ace and they have JT, they'll probably fold to any board with an ace and thus you missed a lot of equity vs simply shoving.

I just don't see it working much unless you are very confident you are behind preflop but don't have any value in folding due to desperation.

I'd be really interested to see if anyone knows of any study where they actually broke it down. Considering all the math behind whether or not to shove/call has been done you'd figure this would be a no brainer.

Last edited by rickroll; 02-04-2016 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 02-04-2016, 02:14 PM   #7
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

Calling to open shove any flop (or any flop but xyz) indiscriminately is pretty clearly suboptimal IMO.
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Old 02-04-2016, 03:13 PM   #8
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Calling to open shove any flop (or any flop but xyz) indiscriminately is pretty clearly suboptimal IMO.
I agree. The stop & Go has limited utility. It's change of pace that if used too much can be a problem. It really only works against an opponent that will almost always call the pre flop shove and almost always fold to a flop shove if he misses. It also strongly suggests your range for doing it should be like 22-88.

Little fold equity pre - lots of fold equity OTF vs a range that still has SDE even when it misses the flop.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:19 PM   #9
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Originally Posted by Kurn, son of Mogh View Post
I agree. The stop & Go has limited utility. It's change of pace that if used too much can be a problem. It really only works against an opponent that will almost always call the pre flop shove and almost always fold to a flop shove if he misses. It also strongly suggests your range for doing it should be like 22-88.

Little fold equity pre - lots of fold equity OTF vs a range that still has SDE even when it misses the flop.
See here's my thoughts on pocket pairs. Anyone who pushes you into a stop and go is going to call if they connect with the board at all. Thus if you stop and go with small pairs you lose equity on the hands you likely would have won anyway (but now for far less) and still bust where you would have anyway.

It seems like a strategy based on a meta game or results driven bias and I'm just not sold it's an optimal strategy unless you are sure you are behind and there is enough chips left to fire that shove will have some fold equity to it.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:24 PM   #10
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Originally Posted by rickroll View Post

It seems like a strategy based on a meta game or results driven bias and I'm just not sold it's an optimal strategy unless you are sure you are behind and there is enough chips left to fire that shove will have some fold equity to it.
It is absolutely NOT an optimal strategy. I play 150-200 tournaments a year and I don't think I've used the stop and go more than twice since about BF.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:27 PM   #11
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

200 tournaments a year

holy cow, that is alot
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Old 02-05-2016, 08:55 AM   #12
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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200 tournaments a year

holy cow, that is alot
I'm pretty sure there are a whole army of online players who play close to 10x that. 200 per year is 4 per week.
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:05 AM   #13
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

Pretty sure I play more than that and I tend to put in about 2 MTT sessions a year...
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Old 02-05-2016, 09:17 AM   #14
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

so you play 100 MTTs a session? seems legit.
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Old 02-05-2016, 11:03 AM   #15
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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so you play 100 MTTs a session? seems legit.
Yeah, I mean, I've changed recently but on my last stake I was playing most things from $5 to $200 when I played MTTs and when you reg all of those for four hours you get pretty close for 100.
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Old 02-05-2016, 04:41 PM   #16
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Yeah, I mean, I've changed recently but on my last stake I was playing most things from $5 to $200 when I played MTTs and when you reg all of those for four hours you get pretty close for 100.
If we include spin n gos and sngs I've played nearly 1k in the last month and take a lot of time off in between sessions - definitely plausible.
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Old 02-05-2016, 05:47 PM   #17
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

the original statement about tournament volume was just a slight troll, guys
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Old 02-12-2016, 09:23 PM   #18
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
Wouldn't shoving AA make more sense because the villian wouldn't raise to you if he wasn't prepared to call your shove?
this makes a lot of sense.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:25 PM   #19
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

This is so ridiculous.
OP asks a valid general question and
one guy puts out a sentence with AA and QQ, clearly missing the whole point. Then everyone talks about that.
After that, the main line of thought is whether 200MTT is little or lot.

OP: I have the same question. Let me know if you found some answers....
And I need to know where to find a better discussion
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:39 PM   #20
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Re: Has there been a true study on optimal stop and go play?

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Originally Posted by NMIZIZ View Post
This is so ridiculous.
OP asks a valid general question and
one guy puts out a sentence with AA and QQ, clearly missing the whole point. Then everyone talks about that.
After that, the main line of thought is whether 200MTT is little or lot.

OP: I have the same question. Let me know if you found some answers....
And I need to know where to find a better discussion
The first post in this thread is the correct answer.

Also don't bump old threads.
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