Just because it might not be a good law doesn't mean it shouldn't be followed.

I don't work for the tax office, but I am a law student so take that as you will.

You want to know what happens when people blindly respect the law?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws

Yeah I went there.

I guess you think its totally reasonable for Online Poker to be banned in many countries because hey, its the right thing by the law!

wowowowow

edit:

You are from the UK. I'm stunned you hold this sort of opinion.

I'd argue that a segregationist policy is a sufficient reason to justify risking legal instability, while access to online poker isn't, although this is clearly inherently a normative matter. If you have an unjust principle underlying the law, civil disobedience may be justified; if it's merely a single unjust law, it rarely is. The idea of the law tends to be that disobedience is worthy of contempt by its very fact (assuming one believes Hart but I don't want to expand on other views here; it suffices to say that his is the majority view).

I don't see how my being from the UK bears much relevance.

That is such a terrible way to argue. You take the most extreme example you can find and then hold that up as a reason to not follow laws. Bad tax laws are different and don't hurt anyone in terms that they just discourage people from making money in a way that does have negative societal impacts.

The argument that you are presenting deals with people restricting others ability to live a life that is guaranteed under numerous charters and treaties throughout the world. The Greek tax laws are far from doing that, and it's simply restrictive to a particular portion of the society that is concerned with gambling.

The fact that you had to state "I just went there," implies that you know your argument was at best terrible. When you want to have an adult conversation about the issue, then we can start, but if you are going to defend something by destroying the magnitude of the situation then it's north the time.

Having even one law that should not be followed is direct logical proof of the statement 'not all laws should be followed' .

Do you think every 17 year old that drinks a beer/smoked a cigarette is a criminal?

Taxing daily income for poker is ridiculous and the people who voted on it clearly had no clue. It was clearly a means to tax these "big tournament cashes " that they hear so much about , without taking any consideration into account for grinders. and its much worse foe tournament players too. Under this system, a cash player could earn 15k a year paying essentially no tax , and a tournament player earning the same amount could pay around 10k in taxes.

Any law that is made by ignorant people should be avoided , especially when it is easy to do so

I'm saying that the law should be followed because it is a law in a generally just system. The bolded statement is just ridiculous and to be honest I don't think I even need to say why, if you look at it while thinking clearly and sober you should be able to see it.

You really think thats the reason for the tax laws for poker players? The only reason they're the way it is, is because Greece is in huge debt and the Government needs to make money ASAP and Poker Players are among the small crowd in Greece actually making money that is trackable.

Sure I presented an extreme case but that extreme case carried on for 89 years! 89 years of ignorance because it was the law! The only reason Black people have any rights today in America is because a Political figure fought for them. That just goes to show how fickle and hive minded people are.

I guess its fine how the Australian government is treating refugees. I guess its fine that the Turkish government is gradually censoring what was once considered a free country. I guess its fine that the Woman are so poorly treated in the Middle East. I guess its fine that Governments are banning online poker worldwide.

Hey its the law


There are countless cases of how the law has been detrimental to progress and people have fought against them and a lot of times, the people have overthrown the Government and brought about change.

Unfortunately Poker players seem to live in this bubble where they think its normal to be scammed, cheated, lied to, have terrible laws placed against them.

If you guys are so adamant on following the law why are you guys playing online poker?


edit:

I do think laws should be followed IF they are just and as humans with morals and ethics, we are able to determine whether a law is just or not. This is why we voice our opinions, vote, protest, riot.

Do you think it is a good law that a person taking a piss at 4:00am after a drunken slumber in a park/playground is listed as a registered sex offender? In the US a person taking a piss in a park can receive the same label as a person who raped a child. That sticks for life too. Do you think that is fair? It is the law.

Do you think it is a good law that couples in China are limited to one child? "The ‘one-child’ policy has also led to what Amartya Sen first called “Missing Women,” or the 100 million girls “missing” from the populations of China (and other developing countries) as a result of female infanticide, abandonment, and neglect" . People just following the law.

My cases may seem extreme but thats cause all stupid laws are extreme including this one against Greek poker player.

I think the fact you treat your right to play poker the same as pain and suffering of individuals disgusting.

Lol.

Its not about my right to play poker. Its about human rights.

But sure, keep twisting it.

Are you pretending there is a fundamental human right to play poker?

There damn well should be

I'd be interested to know how it feels from a greek grinder's perspective.
Like, if you are a MTT grinder and lose 100€ 30 days in a row. Then you bink a MTT and make 3500€. You finally made a 500€ profit, right ? No, you have to pay 700€ to the government. You lost 200€ over the last month.

This law is obviously awfully designed and completely unfair (though this is a moral and not a legal statement). Let's be honest, none of us would happily obey something that stupid and unfair.
The MTT register/unregister strategy is a loophole (and therefore is probably not illegal) which actually makes it fair. I'm sure that even the Greek government, however stupid and greedy they are, would understand that. In the end, no Greek player can make more than 100€/day on average without paying taxes and that's what the government was trying to accomplish.

The burden of justification resides on the people using guns and jails to prevent and/or steal money from people doing a non-violent activity.
So yes, there is a fundamental human right to engage in nonviolent activities without fear of aggression

I hope you enjoy arguing with those kinds of people, I've quit a long time ago lol.

All the proof that is needed to show that the law is justified is to show that it forms a part of a legitimate (not going to go into legitimacy here but I can do in a further post), and (arguably) generally just legal system. The default position vis a vis human rights is that the human right does not exist (else we would have this ridiculous system of rights) and thus the burden of proof is on the person seeking to establish a human right. Furthermore 'engaging in nonviolent activities without fear of aggression' must be justified by the person in each and every case (or shown to be logically consistent given generally accepted axioms); it's easier just to prove a right to play poker. Even if you were able to make a case for this particular one, I'd offer the (controversial, but IMO correct) utilitarian argument that no absolute human rights should exist.

...

A) Poker should not be a human right, that makes no sense.

B) You can still play it.

C) Discouraging people from wanting to do it as a career isn't a bad things.

D) The fact you can't separate the two is kind of sad. This is nuanced debate that shouldn't center on human rights, bu instead weighing if the ill-effects from playing poker are greater or less than the benefit from having people play high stakes poker.

Poker should not be a human right but we all should have the right to play poker or as Americans like to call it, Freedom.

The Law is not my girlfriend.

Yes, I can still play it but it is more important to me, as it should be to other poker players, that EVERYONE can play it.

Discouragement is fine if its a bad option. The only reason choosing poker as a career in Greece is a bad option is because of the tax.

Every industry has its swings. It isn't limited to Poker.

You only need to do a bit of research into Greece's economic situation to understand why Poker players are getting it in the anus.

Come on, you must be able to see that poker has negative social effects.

Why should we have freedom?

It is sad that there are still people swallowing unfiltered all the cr@p the mass media are feeding u. And even more sad that the internet gives such people the right to express their opinion.

Gl

Sent from my GT-I8190 using 2+2 Forums

What are they?

This law for the withholding tax for greek poker players is insane.
Poker it's not like playing slot machines. Those who made that law, was too lazy and they have not the knowledge required, to think a logical law and they put poker in the same box with any other gambling game. It's a shame.

Just go into the 'Degen stories' thread in BBV.

Everything has negative social affects.

And so does this thread.