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 02-25-2018, 03:02 AM #1 Cfoye grinder   Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 636 Got made fun of by a whole table 9 people everyone folds to the button, button has me covered and jams, sb folds and I’m on the B.B. with q10off and it will cost me 7 B.B. and my whole stack I make the call. So my poker buddy enthusiasts was this a mathematically bad call or not?
 02-25-2018, 03:41 AM #2 mttplayer enthusiast   Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 51 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table is there antes? if not and lets say the blinds are 100/200. you have 1400 after you post your 200 blind. 1600-200blind = 1400 stack = 7BB. 200x 7 =1400 button shoves 1400. SB folds. pot is 1700. cost for you to call is 1400. the odds are 1700 divide 1400 which equals 1.2. so the odds are 1.2:1 100 divide 2.2 = 45% 1.2+1 = 2.2 You need to win more than 45% of the time to make this call profitable. If button is jamming with his top 40% of hands you have 45% equity making it a call. math isnt always the best move however. sometimes you wanna gamble in a tourny. if you know that button will tilt and will start betting alot of hands you might make a call with 30% chance of winning the hand. how many hands has button jammed with on the button? You should ask another question. What hands are profitable to shove on the button here if you were button? Last edited by mttplayer; 02-25-2018 at 03:53 AM.
 02-25-2018, 03:48 AM #3 mttplayer enthusiast   Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 51 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table Plus lose the care that they make fun of you.
 02-25-2018, 04:17 AM #4 Cfoye grinder   Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 636 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table no antes. Is it black and white concrete fold or call or can you only measure it against the estimated shoving range of the specific player?
02-25-2018, 05:26 AM   #5
warped
grinder

Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 458
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Cfoye no antes. Is it black and white concrete fold or call or can you only measure it against the estimated shoving range of the specific player?
You have to measure it against their estimated range. Everything is player dependent.

 02-25-2018, 06:21 AM #6 Brokenstars Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Check out my PGC!!! Posts: 10,684 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table im always calling readless
02-25-2018, 09:49 AM   #7
Kelvis
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,438
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mttplayer is there antes? if not and lets say the blinds are 100/200. you have 1400 after you post your 200 blind. 1600-200blind = 1400 stack = 7BB. 200x 7 =1400 button shoves 1400. SB folds. pot is 1700. cost for you to call is 1400. the odds are 1700 divide 1400 which equals 1.2. so the odds are 1.2:1 100 divide 2.2 = 45% 1.2+1 = 2.2 You need to win more than 45% of the time to make this call profitable.
Button is actually shoving 8BB, there is 1,5BB dead money and you need to call 7BB. That's 9,5:7 or 1,36:1. So that's a little over 42%. Either way I'm never folding here.

Quote:
 If button is jamming with his top 40% of hands you have 45% equity making it a call. math isnt always the best move however. sometimes you wanna gamble in a tourny. if you know that button will tilt and will start betting alot of hands you might make a call with 30% chance of winning the hand. how many hands has button jammed with on the button? You should ask another question. What hands are profitable to shove on the button here if you were button?
No

 02-25-2018, 01:03 PM #8 sixfour should be called sevenfour     Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Fire Rod Harrington Posts: 59,507 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table Depends on how much he covers you by, what the small blind's stack is as well (is he going to shove as wide if he knows SB can call and stack him, or does he cover us both?), how wide you've seen him playing/shoving, speed of the tournament, are there any ICM considerations, etc etc
 02-25-2018, 01:06 PM #9 jcorb old hand   Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: banishment land Posts: 1,801 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table save your money for a better hand. You are way behind against AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or 1010. IMO I would wait to shove with better cards.
 02-25-2018, 02:31 PM #10 Kurn, son of Mogh Carpal \'Tunnel   Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Rhode Island and Providence Plantat Posts: 14,058 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table How many left? Other stack sizes? Payout structure?
02-25-2018, 03:51 PM   #11
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,919
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kelvis Either way I'm never folding here.
On the bubble, very flat pay-out structure, UTG has 0.5BB and is in the BB the next hand. Do you still call?

 02-25-2018, 04:00 PM #12 Kelvis Pooh-Bah   Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5,438 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table Yes, I still call.
02-25-2018, 05:08 PM   #13
Custom User Title

Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,919
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kelvis Yes, I still call.
That’s ICM suicide if the average stack is something like 3BB and you have a super flat payout structure close to a DON.

02-25-2018, 05:23 PM   #14
Kelvis
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,438
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by madlex That’s ICM suicide if the average stack is something like 3BB and you have a super flat payout structure close to a DON.
It was obviously sarcastic because you posed the question in such a way that the "always" was obviously wrong, which you know I know it is.

I always call if chip EV is what matters. Instances like bubbles etc weren't close to mentioned by OP, and even though it sometimes applies this seems a pretty standard case that an entire table doesn't understand that short stack all ins aren't as strong as 100bb shoves. There may or may not have been ICM considerations, I think it's very unlikely that it is the reason why 8 bad players claim it is a bad call. Therefor I ignored it.

Even though OP shouldn't ever act on what anyone at live games recommends, it does give a nice insight in their strategy. If people are willing to fold QT for 8bb then you can shove on them very light.

02-25-2018, 05:27 PM   #15
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,919
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Kelvis this seems a pretty standard case that an entire table doesn't understand
We call that live poker.

(Un-)fortunately that also means that the other players at the table might open shove the button with the same range they would use to stack off 100BB deep.

 02-25-2018, 05:34 PM #16 Kelvis Pooh-Bah   Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5,438 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table I mean, they probably are shoving too tight, but 8bb button vs blinds is just not a spot that I ever adjust too much unless I have a really big sample and/or they actually show me their cards. Although I did just notice that SB might have a much bigger stack. Depending on what that stack is I would make an adjustment.
 02-26-2018, 05:17 PM #17 browni3141 old hand   Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,788 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table According to the push/fold charts QTo is just barely profitable here. Against players that are shoving even slightly too tight ranges it’s a fold. Even against an optimal BU shover I probably have a bigger edge in the tournament than in this spot against what sounds like a bunch of weak tights that don’t understand short stack play. It’s a clear fold unless BU is Overly aggro so we can live on to get a ton of profitable blind steal opportunities.
02-26-2018, 05:52 PM   #18
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Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by browni3141 According to the push/fold charts QTo is just barely profitable here. Against players that are shoving even slightly too tight ranges it’s a fold.
That depends on SBs stack. If he has 8BB or less, BU is shoving effectively for 8BB which he should do with over 50% of hands. Against such a range, QTo has almost 53% equity. In a spot that requires you to be good 43% of the time, that's a pretty significant edge.

Now if BU and SB both have 200BB, things are different obviously.

02-26-2018, 07:21 PM   #19
browni3141
old hand

Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,788
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by madlex That depends on SBs stack. If he has 8BB or less, BU is shoving effectively for 8BB which he should do with over 50% of hands. Against such a range, QTo has almost 53% equity. In a spot that requires you to be good 43% of the time, that's a pretty significant edge. Now if BU and SB both have 200BB, things are different obviously.
If everyone has 8BB then BU should be shoving 34.5% of hands. I'm guessing you looked at a chart considering antes. OP said there are no antes.
https://floattheturn.com/wp/pushfold/

QTo has 42.66% against the range this chart gives.
22+,A2s+,K4s+,Q8s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A2o +,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

.4266*16.5-7 = +.039 BB.

Of course, if BU is deeper or shorter with SB it could make a big difference.

I would also argue that a player who laughs at OP for calling QTo here is shoving tighter than the range above.

 03-03-2018, 12:24 PM #20 the_spike old hand     Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,433 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table IMO the first most important things to consider are the stack sizes of the button and the SB, in addition to player range as already mentioned. So personally, if you are looking at feedback, I think the bigger problem than should you call here is the fact that you're not considering the most important factors when making your poker decisions. The information posters put in their hand examples on this forum tells a lot about their understanding of the game, and frankly (tough love) there's a lot of missing information here.
03-06-2018, 04:47 AM   #21
Poker Clif
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Muskegon, Michigan, USA
Posts: 5,391
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by mttplayer Plus lose the care that they make fun of you.

I agree 100%, that's critical. You can't let yourself be tilted. I got in a discussion about that with another player and here's what I told him, not word for word but pretty close:

----------

I thought about what might make me tilt, and like most guys, it would probably be if someone went after my family in a live tournament, but even that wouldn't do it.

In fact, if someone called my wife a whore, I would not respond and I would keep playing. I'm not there to protect my family's honor. I'm there to bring money home to my family and I have to stay focused on that.

----------

I ran that one by my wife later and I could see the wheels turning for a while. Finally, reluctantly, she said, "You're right, it's the money that matters."

My mother had a different reaction when something similar happened online. Someone who seemed pretty young hit me with "your mother was good last night" in the chat box. I immediately responded with "That's pretty kinky, my mom is 80." I never heard from that guy again.

I told my mother about it and she got really upset. She was sputtering and acting really strange and I was regretting telling her that. Finally she got the words out: "I'm only 78!"

03-08-2018, 12:46 PM   #22
Cfoye
grinder

Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 636
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by the_spike IMO the first most important things to consider are the stack sizes of the button and the SB, in addition to player range as already mentioned. So personally, if you are looking at feedback, I think the bigger problem than should you call here is the fact that you're not considering the most important factors when making your poker decisions. The information posters put in their hand examples on this forum tells a lot about their understanding of the game, and frankly (tough love) there's a lot of missing information here.
fair game, i'll wear that. In my defence all i'll say is i was trying to keep it short and sweet to get to the meat of the matter but omitting sb stack size was very much a huge part of the meat. lessons learned

03-13-2018, 01:31 PM   #23
Biggle10
veteran

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: St. Louis/ Ultimate Frisbee pitch
Posts: 2,849
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by madlex We call that live poker.
This. I've had tables (or at least several players at the table) make fun of me for raising preflop.

 03-13-2018, 02:46 PM #24 football24 stranger   Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1 Re: Got made fun of by a whole table Nice to learn from all of these comments
03-14-2018, 07:30 AM   #25
Lord_Crispen
grinder

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: unknown
Posts: 557
Re: Got made fun of by a whole table

Quote:
 Originally Posted by browni3141 I would also argue that a player who laughs at OP for calling QTo here is shoving tighter than the range above.
This was my first thought. I deal casual rec live tourneys every day and maybe like 10-20% of the field even understands that we need to bluff steal blinds to make it to the finish line. Their minds would be blown if they opened Harrington Vol. 2 and found out about M. (yes, my point is that's old news to anyone that knows anything at all about tournament poker, etc)

Taking this into account, if this is a weak tight field, how do we adjust for their shoving range? 77+, and KJo+?

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