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Old 01-05-2018, 10:47 PM   #1
tlytle123
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Don't Understand This Game

been playing for about 3 years and i honestly feel like i have gotten worse. i only play 1/2 live cash game at the local casino and occasional mtt that is $100 buy-in.

i am a losing player. by thousands of dollars. i don't get it. i have tried to adopt tight strategies but i am always on the losing end every time. i can't even beat these old geezers that play 1/2. they just crush me every time and i don't get it. i don't know how to measure what i'm doing wrong since it is live. not raising often enough? not raising big enough? not aggressive enough post flop? too aggressive post flop?

i feel like these fools are limping 80% of their hands and i always get 2 or 3 callers when i raise and i always get either raised or check raised nearly every hand. it's like they always know i don't have top set so they can just raise me. and when i call with TPTK they either have a set, two pair, or they hit their straight on the turn or river. i just don't get what i'm doing wrong. i honestly feel like if i have any good hand, it is all in preflop everytime since i can't play post flop apparently.

i have watched a **** ton of videos and read tons of books by dan harrington, jonathan little, and miller and it just feels like none of the **** they say in those books seem to apply. always ends up bad. i just get wrecked constantly at this game. i want to blame it on something other than me just sucking ass but god damn, these people are just super ****ing fishy and i can't even break even vs them. i just don't get how to play.
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Old 01-06-2018, 01:55 AM   #2
tucanroman
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

I'm a fish but anyway here is a question: do you realy understand odds, pot odds, bet sizings, ranges and aply them in game?

I think I am solving this kind of problem by stoping reading books and watching videos. Starting to study focused items 1 at time, then practice it some weeks. I may watch a video if I have a pen and papers with me and take notes about the subjet, or Im at bed about to sleep

You may also take some practice online
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:30 AM   #3
Bene Gesserit
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

OP are you just ranting and raving , overstating stuff , or are things really as bad as you posted? Cause if you are serious , I don't see why you are still playing poker. This game, at these stakes , is supposed to be fun. You don't sound like you are having much fun, to say the least!

Remember what Doc H said? "Maybe pokers just not your game Ike"
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:12 PM   #4
HSDeathMachine
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Do you have a tilt problem? The reason I ask is this thread:

VPIP / PFR Experiment for Live

You were doing quite well and then lost quite a bit quickly. Did this cause further tilt?

Since you already have read the core books (Harrington, etc.), try The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler next. I'm about halfway through it now. While I don't have big tilt problem, if you do you may find some help controlling it in this book.

Just a thought.

Good luck.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:22 PM   #5
Shamway99
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

"Don't Understand This Game "

Then dont play it.
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:06 PM   #6
tlytle123
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by HSDeathMachine View Post
Do you have a tilt problem? The reason I ask is this thread:

VPIP / PFR Experiment for Live

You were doing quite well and then lost quite a bit quickly. Did this cause further tilt?

Since you already have read the core books (Harrington, etc.), try The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler next. I'm about halfway through it now. While I don't have big tilt problem, if you do you may find some help controlling it in this book.

Just a thought.

Good luck.
Yes, I have a tilt problem when I shred 700$ in two hours. That's why I said I don't get it. It's like, these fools are playing 90% of their hands and I am only sticking to 5 or 10% of hands and I lose relentlessly to these geezers. I can't count the number of times I raise with AK, one of the limpers call anyway, flop is QJ6, and then they donk into me.

Wtf is that? Like, what in the actual **** is that? Or, I turn top 2, and they obviously have a set and stack me, or I flop a full house, then get stacked by a bigger full house. It's ****ing insane. They play every hand! Every. Single. ****ing. Hand. How can they always just have monsters when I am in the hand? That's what I don't understand. Just something I don't understand about this game.

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Old 01-06-2018, 03:16 PM   #7
SharkytheFish
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Hard to know where to start with that op. Are you playing the same cash game constantly with the same people? If so the 1st thing you should consider is finding a different game preferably at lower stakes if possible.
No one here is going to be able to identify exactly what your leaks are as your post is so general. I'm guessing you call a lot when you'r not good. For example in relation to this; 'it's like they always know i don't have top set so they can just raise me. and when i call with TPTK they either have a set, two pair. This should rarely be happening and I doubt you'r calling it off regularly with a 2nd best TPTK due to your' opponents skill.

Last edited by SharkytheFish; 01-06-2018 at 03:16 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:47 PM   #8
King Spew
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Those "fools" are not playing 90% of their hands.

You say you are playing 1/2 (assumed NL) at a local casino (not a home game.) I would wager you ANY amount of money that ANY of the other 8 players are not play 90% of their hands. Or...you are saying that every hand goes to the flop 7 handed?

(warning: funny math to follow. Think globally, not specifically)

However, let's say you did find the one casino in the world where it IS likely that 5 players to the flop is the norm. (Lots of Vegas 1/2 doesn't even get to the flop because of the tightness of the tables).

Each has a theoretical 20% of the pot PF (not actually but bear with me). With AA, your equity increases PF...maybe to 33% vs. the other 4 players. Sucks, but you will lose 67% of the time. Damn, that's not fair but.....learn how to evaluate a flop vs. your villain's range and you may actually find folds where you should. Remember, AA is likely a one pair hand that is NOT likely to improve. DON'T play big pots with AA multiway. Bet bigger PF to whittle down to one or two opponents. Keep increasing your pre-flop sizing until that occurs. You STILL will LOSE over half the time....deal with it.

Multiple multiple-handed games are extremely fun though.... if you can adjust. TP hands go down in value and played for set value (even AA,KK at times) and drawing hands go WAY up in value because of the implied odds.

Loosening up your playing range is difficult at first. It will seem as though you are dying from a thousand cuts. Usually that means you are not pressing your advantage on your big drawing hands.

************************************************** **************

I think another poster may have hit the nail on the head when he asked you if you are playing with the same players all the time. "Those old guys" are much more attuned to your play than you give them credit. I would call you with any-two-cards (ATC) if you opened since I have a GREAT feeling I can outplay you post-flop.

((It may be time to step back and evaluate what exactly is happening. Are you a call station with an overpair? Do you easily fold to pressure?? Either one and you are toast against me......and it sounds like you have 5 or 6 "me"s at every table ))
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:51 PM   #9
King Spew
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Just wanted to reiterate with a known, successful idea:

We raise our premiums PF because of our equity edge. We also realize that our premiums are weak hands (not strong) vs. a family pot..... thus it is VERY important to raise PF to cut the amount of opponents to a minimum....and increase our equity as a nice tasty bonus.

#2 strat: it is more important to win the war, not each battle
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:56 PM   #10
Didace
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlytle123 View Post
Yes, I have a tilt problem when I shred 700$ in two hours. That's why I said I don't get it. It's like, these fools are playing 90% of their hands and I am only sticking to 5 or 10% of hands and I lose relentlessly to these geezers. I can't count the number of times I raise with AK, one of the limpers call anyway, flop is QJ6, and then they donk into me.
Seems to me they have figured out you fold too much.
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Old 01-06-2018, 04:52 PM   #11
Lockenfeller
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Hey,
I never played live and i'm still pretty much a fish
but:
Do you understand the (most) important "concepts" ?
Here is a small list that i made for myself:
The Gap Theorie
The Beluga Therorem
Value Betting
Reverse Implied Odds
Implied Odds
The Rule of 2/4
Equity
Fold Equity
Bet sizing
Expected Value
Bluffing,Semi Bluffing,Breake even Percentage,Auto Profit
CBetting/Donk Bets
BRM
Playing with Ranges not hands
Playing with and against Capped/Uncapped Ranges
Set-Mining
Squeezing
The Power of Position
Floating
Bayes theorum
The Jailhouse Phone-Call Conjecture

I don't say that it's perfect but if you dont know some of these concepts look them up btw im still editing the list so its not complete. ( I guess it never will be)
Take notes on important Hands review them and discuss them if possible, get a book and write them down, write down what you learned from the last session. If possible talk to a profitable Player at youre local Casino about Hands etc...
Set yourself a Stop-loss (if i lose x-Buy ins i'll leave the Tables)
Focus on one Topic at a time then the next one.


And maybe just maybe Poker is not the right thing 4you and it's better to let it go.
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:36 PM   #12
HSDeathMachine
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlytle123 View Post
... It's like, these fools are playing 90% of their hands and I am only sticking to 5 or 10% of hands and I lose relentlessly to these geezers. I can't count the number of times I raise with AK, one of the limpers call anyway, flop is QJ6, and then they donk into me.

...They play every hand! Every. Single. ****ing. Hand. How can they always just have monsters when I am in the hand? That's what I don't understand. Just something I don't understand about this game.
5-10% is too tight. You are too predictable and your PF range is too narrow. You mentioned that you have Harrington's books. Use his PF ranges. They will get you over 10%.

They don't play every hand. They can't. They would go broke too fast. I know this because I have watched men do it at my local casino. They last about 2 months and are gone. They may play 50% and that is something you will need to learn to play against.

Add some drawing hands to your 5-10% range and focus on drawing to the nuts (or somewhere close) with proper odds. Maybe that will help?
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:31 AM   #13
pucmo
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

I had the same trouble in understanding NLH even after reading many books of it and being a competent limit holdem and plo player, and I understood those games.

Janda's applications book changed that. But for loose live games, it is best to start from Thomas Mitchell's book of No Limit hold'em - Beating the micro stakes, as it should fit in those games (imo) and is an easy read.

Using Janda in your game is too advanced, although it gives the understanding of GTO -- that here means the understanding of your ranges and balance, and overall the mathematics of nlh (that is the core understanding).
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Old 01-08-2018, 04:59 PM   #14
Nepeeme2008
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

I'm going to be harsh. Why? Cause it's fun!
King Spew is right.
You're too predictable. Way.
You read Harrington and Miller, that says it all. You play ABC.
Dump Those books and just about every other book you've read.
Those old geezers you're critisizing, they're salivating every time they see you at the table.
Find a friendly low stakes home game or enter some low buy in tournament leage to work on your game.
If after that, you still lose all the time,
Well, maybe it just ain't your game.
Not everyone can be a pro athlete, not everyone can be good at poker.
Why do you think poker is still alive and well, cause of charity.
Gl
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:10 PM   #15
Nepeeme2008
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

I should add this, just to be fair.
3 years is not an extremely long time.
Maybe some people do extremely well after starting in the game after only a couple of years, but,
These people are exceptional talents.
Most of us, me included, need longer than that.
Not everyone can be a Feder Holz or a Tom Dwan.
Again.gl
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:16 PM   #16
playinggameswithu
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Stay away from cash game. It is a wicked skill game. Just play MTT's where you can win big with minimal skills, as long as you are not wreckless.
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Old 01-08-2018, 05:40 PM   #17
DalTXColtsFan
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

OP, you mentioned having a "bankroll" of 100bi, or $20,000. Is that TRULY a poker bankroll? Is it TRULY money that's set COMPLETELY aside exclusively for POKER - you don't need ONE PENNY of it to pay rent, utilities, food, yada yada yada?
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Old 01-09-2018, 02:16 AM   #18
Fatboy54
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Speaking on behalf of the old geezers everywhere what is it that universally prevents us from owning your sorry arse at the felt???

Personally, I can confirm that my sprinting, punching and throwing skills have gone downhill a little of late, but, assuming my nurse can get me to the casino, I can still see the cards, do a wee bit o' math and stack the occasional whale.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:54 AM   #19
answer20
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Re: Don't Understand This Game

Good stuff here already (especially from KS #2 strat) so I'm not sure what I can add, but I must try.

1) Too tight for a 1/2 game for sure. They have you figured out and you need to 'gently' learn how to take advantage of your image to steal pots. Look at your bet sizing and timing tells.

I have one guy who I know only plays 1/3 of the deck. Whenever I have position on him I flat his raises and if the Board is below 9 I know I'm going to win if I bet. And if it comes one high and two 'low' than I have a chance to win a big pot since he then goes into scared money syndrome and overplays his hands.

It probably does stink when it feels like the table is ganging up on you. Do you talk about hands at the table? Is there anyone who you chat with when you take a break? I used to hang out and chat with the Dealers as well to pick up tips on other players.

2) Feeling like you got worse? Sometimes I wish I knew less about poker!! There are spots I fold now that I used to shove into and win some pretty big pots. But I've learned that these spots aren't good in the long run so I now fold them away 'correctly'. This is not fun, especially when the hand does hit, but necessary for the long term health of my game and my goals. I've also learned that AA is 'just a pair' and there is no requirement to bet PF and all three streets when you have it in your holding. (War, not battle)

3) You might be better suited for deep stack tournament play (200+bb, 30-40 min levels). You can choose to play 'your' smaller range and as the blinds increase you are naturally punishing those players that come along with weaker holdings. That's not to say that 'those' players aren't stalking you there either, just that the true bust-out nature of tournaments eventually prevents the multi-way pots that you may be struggling with post-Flop.

4) Don't class people as 'old geezers' .. Class them in poker terms. Everyone has a range and style and you need to develop a book on each of them as we assume they have one on your play.

The next time you play I want you to play a hand in late position without looking at your cards every 3-4 orbits. Raise it up and then play it like you hit the Flop. If you do get callers then you may need to check your cards on the Turn but you need to stop 'playing cards' and start playing poker. There is a HUGE difference.

After 10+ years there is still stupid stuff that I do. I justify in my head that sometimes I play to have fun and other times I'm there to turn a profit (like when my BR is down).

I wish you could subscribe to the PokerGo App and watch the women's cash game from last week. It should be obvious to you which of the 7 girls you absolutely represent in my mind. This girl is a decent tournament Pro (I guess) but she just got run over by 'knowing' cash players in both sessions.

Even though your post is a little 'hot' I still think you have the desire for the game. You aren't spouting off 'luck' and 'rigged' .. you are actually looking at yourself which is important.

I would suggest reading The Mental Game of Poker (I&II) by JTendler as well as Painless Poker by TAngelo. I certainly would be remiss if I didn't recommend the books on 'Tells' sold on this site as well.

Good luck and keep us in mind ... post a hand or two .. GL
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