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Old 01-07-2018, 10:40 PM   #1
Beverly71
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Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I’ve read and heard how donk betting on the flop in tournaments is a sign of a beginner or just a bad player. Is this truly correct? Seems to me that leading out to protect a vulnerable hand and keep your opppenent from seeing a turn card on a risky board is a good decision....no?
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:53 PM   #2
King Spew
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Donking in a limped pot is different than "real" donking....which used to mean leading into the PF raiser.
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:18 PM   #3
Beverly71
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

What if there are no limpers? I’am 1st to act preflop.

Example:
Preflop- I open raise from middle position with TT. It’s folded around to the button who 3bets....the blinds fold and I call.

The flop comes out 8d Jh Qd. On a dangerous board like this, even though I wasn’t the pre-flop aggressor don’t I want to lead out with a bet rather than check and give away a free card?
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:37 PM   #4
madlex
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Why do you think it’s a good idea to bet on that flop OOP in a 3bet pot?
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:48 PM   #5
playinggameswithu
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I sometimes like to bet the minimum when an opponents hand as drawn dead to humiliate them into folding or usually bluff raising me by a wide ratio. Besides that I never donk bet it accomplishes nothing but wasting chips. A defensive bet has some merit as it blocks bluffs especially two barrels.
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Old 01-08-2018, 12:33 AM   #6
Beverly71
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

The example I gave probably isn’t the best, I’am just trying to find out if there is EVER a reason to come out firing on a flop when I’am outta position and wasn’t the preflop aggressor.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:04 AM   #7
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverly71 View Post
The example I gave probably isn’t the best, I’am just trying to find out if there is EVER a reason to come out firing on a flop when I’am outta position and wasn’t the preflop aggressor.
Yeah of course there is. No one can tell you there's never going to be a spot where this is the best line. I do think it's gona rarely be the best line. Maybe hu with a monster against a spaz on a flop that connects well with their pre flop opening range.
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Old 01-08-2018, 07:20 AM   #8
HSDeathMachine
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverly71 View Post
The example I gave probably isn’t the best, I’am just trying to find out if there is EVER a reason to come out firing on a flop when I’am outta position and wasn’t the preflop aggressor.
Jonathan Little has a section on this in his book Bluffs. Basically, it is used as an alternative to a check/raise when you have a good idea on how your opponent will react.

The best hands to lead vs competent players are those not good enough to check/call. Lead for value if you know your opponent will raise a wide range, lead as a bluff if you think your opponent will fold.

Personally, it is not a move that I use but I am researching adding it to my game in the future.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:36 AM   #9
Beverly71
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Thanks for all the replies....it’s very much appreciated.
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Old 01-08-2018, 08:56 AM   #10
EvilGreebo
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Most problematic decisions post flop are caused by problems on prior streets.

Example: BTN 3 bet and you flatted in the blinds with TT?

Personally I think that's either a fold or a 4bet. Any reads on the btn?
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Old 01-08-2018, 09:23 AM   #11
Beverly71
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I open raised preflop from middle position with my 10’s....the button 3bet and the blinds folded. I then called the button.

So from what I’m gathering, most of the time, on the flop I should be checking to the preflop aggressor?

And no, no reads on the btn.
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Old 01-08-2018, 10:37 AM   #12
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverly71 View Post
The flop comes out 8d Jh Qd. On a dangerous board like this, even though I wasn’t the pre-flop aggressor don’t I want to lead out with a bet rather than check and give away a free card?
Who is this Flop dangerous for? I'd say both of you .. In ABC terms you have 3rd pair (or worse and not really a hand to 'protect'). In 'potential' you have gutter that is most likely good against most 3-bet ranges ... and YOU ARE folding to all raises as well.

In general I think Donk bets are made to build pots, not so much 'protect'. Perhaps 'protect' when multi-way and you want to both build a pot when you think you're ahead and possibly thin the herd. The idea is to take advantage of equity that may not be there on the Turn when you think you are ahead or have a massive draw.

If this Flop is 9d7h6d do you feel more inclined to c/c or Donk? While you may still fold to a raise here, you have eliminated a lot of potential hands that you are behind v the other Flop.

If you are involved in a limpfest or call a raise from the blinds multi-way and then a Flop like 559r or 275r comes out I have no problems Donking out into a passive table regardless of what's in my holding. GL
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Old 01-08-2018, 02:24 PM   #13
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverly71 View Post
So from what I’m gathering, most of the time, on the flop I should be checking to the preflop aggressor?
Yes. Spots where it would be optimal to have a donkbet frequency of over 50% are incredibly rare, and almost any hand that makes sense as a donkbet would also make sense as a check-raise or check-call. Since checking is almost never a mistake, it's best to learn how to play your ranges as 100% checks to the raiser before you even consider donking. People that donk a lot tend to be losing players.
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Old 01-08-2018, 04:01 PM   #14
Nepeeme2008
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Conventional wisdom has taught us that donk betting is bad, only done by bad player's. I don't agree anymore.
It can actually be a very effective play.
But, only in small buy in tournaments against weak players who fold too much.
You have to get a good read on villains at your table.
Why is it a good play?
Most times, you miss your flop.
A donk bet is looked at like a strong play from a bad players perspective.
His thinking is, " I raised my hand, whiffed the flop, this guy is betting, he must have it, I better fold".
Hero scoops the dead money.
But, like I said, only in low buy in, weak field, tournaments.
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Old 01-08-2018, 04:07 PM   #15
tucanroman
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I do donk in this spot (im a fish, so take it with care)

Im at sb with 33. Some guy from mp1 raises x2, mp3 calls, co calls, btn calls, I call. Flop is 3s4h6h
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Old 01-09-2018, 07:20 PM   #16
Beverly71
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Thanks so much for the advice and lots to think about about....it’s really appreciated everyone!
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:13 PM   #17
Rockin247
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I think it is always good to do a little of everything. Using donk betting rarely, as a tool, to help establish a table image and mixing it up a bit is fine. If you use it, keep it balanced for both your bluffs and your monsters.
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Old 01-15-2018, 06:18 PM   #18
Percyeus86
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I find that a good spot to donk lead, especially mid to late tournament, is when in the BB and facing a steal from the BTN.

With a short stack, we can still defend really wide and on boards that are advantageous for our range (or supposedly advantageous), we can simply lead out with a jam and pick up a nice little pot.

Defending with the likes of: 75s, 64, 86, 54, 97.

Boards like: 6-3-8; 5-6-8, 2-4-6, 8-7-4 etc...

These are good spots to build our stacks and keep us afloat until we find a good spot.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:45 AM   #19
MIB211
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

I can create spots in a tourney where I like donking. Generally it would be when I have a good draw that I'm never folding and want to give myself some fold equity.

For instance, I've got AcQc. Stacks are 800. Button raises to 200 and I flat in the big blind (put aside the fact that this is probably a 3-bet or fold in a tourney). Flop is KcTc3s. I'm fully committed with a NFD, gut shot to broadway and overcard. I may be slightly ahead of a hand like JJ, 99, AT, etc. I may be slightly behind a hand like AK or AA. I may be behind but still getting good odds against a hand like KK or TT. In any event, if I check I'm never folding to a bet, but it would be great to pair my good drawing hand with some FE so I shove. V is never folding AK, but could fold a hand like JJ or 99, which is a great result. If I get called, that's OK too as he's likely shoving the hands he's calling with, I was calling that shove and I'm pretty much flipping against a calling range. So, by donking I get him to potentially fold some hands with equity while still flipping against his gii range.

That said, not a lot of spots that this comes up, and even in my example it only arises because I flatted pre which I shouldn't be doing here. If you made a rule that you don't donk bet generally that's probably right in 90+% of the cases in tournament play (maybe excluding deep-stack tourney play in early rounds) and those where it's wrong usually involve a mistake pre-flop you should focus on.
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Old 01-17-2018, 05:18 PM   #20
7OAD
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

It's fine as an exploit v a stationey/passive villain that doesn't cbet a ton.
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Old 01-18-2018, 09:49 AM   #21
EvilGreebo
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

In live play, as someone who actually raises their hands pre-flop and misses, I rather like the practice - depending of course on who's doing the donking (ie - they're donking into ME, not me donking into them). Mind you I'm playing usually against people I've got a lot of history with.

My raising range is, I think, relatively well balanced, including mid+ pairs and mid+ suited connectors, so of course quite frequently I miss the flop, but if I have 2 or fewer callers I'm usually still c-betting (unless I know my opponent ranges to be already beating me and that they're not folding unless there's paint on the board when I c-bet).

So if I raise pre and whiff, the donk better bets out OOP, and I know they're only doing this on low boards with their mid+ pairs as well as the times they smash the board, it's an easy fold for me saving me the c-bet. Meanwhile my range is wider than they tend to think, so in situations where I pick up a huge draw or smash the board myself, I can walk the dog for quite a lot of value.

Obviously it's situation/villain dependent, but in general I think it's a terrible move for the donker - but great for me.
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:01 PM   #22
Beverly71
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

So say villian raises in middle position....it folds around to the me in the BB and I call with my TT’s. (Maybe I should 3bet here, but for the example let’s say I just call).

Flop hits the table and there are straight and flush draws. So it wouldn’t be a good play to lead out with a “donk” bet and try to prevent villian from seeing a turn card? What’s the correct play here?
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Old 01-18-2018, 07:29 PM   #23
King Spew
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Re: Is Donk Betting on the Flop in Tournanents Always a Bad Move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverly71 View Post
Flop hits the table and there are straight and flush draws.
Not enough information given.

Reread the responses from Answer20 and Arty
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