Soo I walked into the casino piss wasted the other day (saturday 4 am) and I feel like I still played this hand correct..

Game: 1/2 deep stacked (all players involved had 250$) no info other than my casino has loads of fish and it is 4 am, I did not take this into consideration when making my decision

I raise MP to 6 (Ad 4d)
CO raises to 12
big blind calls 12
I call 12

Flop: 4c kd 2s (back foor flush and bottom pair for me)

Big Blind bets 11$
I call, fish min-raiser folds

turn: 4h

Big Blind bets 25$, I immediately flat call.

river: 5s
Big Blind bets big this time.. 60$
I shove for the rest of my stack (I started the hand at ~230$)

villain snap calls, shows Ac 3c for the straight..

My thought process (although wasted): I had trip 4s with top kicker, the only straight that beats me is A 3 (possible) or 3 6 (not very likely). I figured this guy will have a lot of stupid 4/x hands like 4/5 suited, 3/4 etc.. maybee even two gappers since these games play crazy. I told myself that in the long term I will get a stupid call from A/K, A/Q, K/x and 4/x or even some weird two pair more often than I will be up against a straight, thinking that this was a long term +EV shove. I also considered that I had an ace blocker and that since the cut-off min raised to 12, an ace could possibly be in his range (just something to consider, not that important of a detail).

What do you guys think? I felt like **** after because even though I only brought 1 buy in to the casino, I was wasted and maybe didn't belong at the table. Not sure if I would have just flat called instead of shoving. If I were sober I think I probably would have flat, I had a gut instinct to flat call but my inhibitions were loose and I shoved.

raise pre seems questionable and raise sizing also seems questionable, i suppose you've got to call CO's pathetically small raise

flop action makes no sense, cutoff cannot check if the big blind has bet, tell us what actually happens

turn is a raise for me

Thanks for the reply

Cut off folded after the bet, my bad.

I raised pre-flop with a4 suited in MP, maybe slightly loose but is it really so bad against a fishy player pool? I probably should have raised 7-9$ instead, right? Anyway I was check/calling if a plain ace hit the flop maybe even folding to bigger turn/river bets.

I thought about raising the turn, maybe make it something like 67$ but I decided to flat call, hoping he makes a better hand on the river (be careful what you wish for).



Cards like Ace, Queen, Jack 10, 9 can (potentially) give him two pair and put him in a tough position with most of his K/x hands, so I decided to give him an extra card.

Aside from raising the turn, if for whatever reason you did not raise the turn, how would you proceed on the river once he bets 60$ into you, would you shove or just call? and why?

Is it really that bad of a flat call on a turn? If there was a flush draw out there I would have definitely raised but I think on a rainbow board like this there is merit to flat calling. I am open to always raising the turn, just wanna know why.

Raise the turn so you can get it all in by the river. He bets twice, he is likely to have something and even if he doesn't most live players give up on the river.

Also, what about the flop? Can I fold bottom pair with a backdoor flush draw sometimes against certain players? (125 bb deep)

Would you still shove the river if for whatever reason you decided to just flat call the turn? Or is it an automatic flat call, since the 5 puts a straight out there.

The 5 doesn't make that many hands so probably, but that's not the point.

Alright thanks for the reply, I will raise the turn next time I am ever put in this spot since it seems to be the popular opinion.

You might want to hold off on calling other players fish. I am nit picking, but there was no min raiser here.

given how dry the board is I don't mind the turn flat. you might get a higher calibre of response if you refrain from posting the results in your OP op.

I'm gonna be a bit critical here as well maybe ... You seem to be able to handle it so far ..

1) $250 in 1/2 is not deep stacked IMO ... It's pretty easy to get 120bb into a pot at most 1/2 games that can go 4-5 ways to the Flop for $12-18 each PFlop. And then you tell us you started with 230, not 250 later in the OP? Always use the effective stack for a base but it is good to know how much the other stacks have it covered by as well.

2) $6 is a pretty small open, but may be fine for that room. I open for $7 quite often myself. I don't have an issue with opening with a suited Ace here.

3) Min raises are usually pretty strong hands, but who knows at this time of morning. I don't mind flatting here at all getting 5 to 1.

4) Donk bets from the blinds are always interesting. Small Donk bets are usually defensive, trying to get to see the next street cheaper than one might expect from a c-bet or otherwise. They could be small to induce a raise as well. In your case it works out .. no reason to raise here and a good price (4 to 1) to continue as you did hit the Board. (Not sure why CO is a fish for folding, could've been a missed set or whiff on AJ/JTs type of hand.)

5) Turn .. IMO another defensive (>50% pot) 'continuation' bet from BB. You can go either way here ... There's something to be said for letting an OOP Player continue to bet into you on the River. You typically have a stranglehold on this hand. If you call $25 the pot is now $110 and you have $180 behind. I want to 'min' raise here, not shove. Perhaps another $35-40 on top which makes is super easy to shove $140 into $$200 if V checks the River. Most every 4x hand will shove into you and most Kx hands will call as well hoping to hit (or improve) their kicker. You also charge a little bit extra for those 'blind' type of hands that we end up seeing here in this case. You certainly could shove, it certainly would be polarizing but I just don't think you get that many calls nor have a lot to worry about going to the River that needs to be scared off.

6) $60 is not 'big' into $110, barely 50% again and not many here will blame you for shoving into a readless opponent/V with only 1/2 pot behind after the call. It very easily could've been a Kx hand looking for value. The question for all shoves is 'Whose calling?' (unless you are trying to generate folds) and most Kx V should pause and 'see' A4/wheel types of holdings in your range and perhaps find a fold. But of course all the other 4x/two pair hands are calling.

7) How does not thinking '4AM fish' change the hand? Either make reads or don't make reads. Are you suggesting that the BB is a fish for flatting Ax here? Didn't you open with Ax? Certainly under 'normal' conditions Ax is probably a fold here with you left to act behind the min raise ... but it's 4 AM!! I find it very rare for an opener to 4-bet a min-raiser PF, so calling from the BB isn't too bad IMO.

What to do differently? I think just the value 'min' raise on the Turn to turn the stack ratios in your favor. You very easily could be a Kx as much as a 4x and you may get nothing on a blank River, so you might as well take value now, especially with it being 4AM. The only thing you miss out on is a River bluff since this Board really has no draws that you might be semi-bluffing that obviously would miss most Rivers. GL

PS ... This is a good hand to post and we all know the only reason these guys are fish is because you lost the hand. You can really skew (and limit) responses with the tone of a post. Thanks for posting and keep coming back for more!!

Only guy I called a fish was the CO

The CO is a fish because he made it 12$ from 6$, which I don't really understand

thanks for the reply

When you say "your thought process", you mean, the thought process that lead to the decision to shove in the game?
Because to be honest, this looks a lot more like what you thought AFTER playing the hand;
You thought about which possible straight beat you, but not about sets(full houses)? This sounds a lot more like you considered the straight (and only the straight) as hands that could beat you because, well, he actually had a straight.


That being said... If your assumption is correct that they will call a shove with pretty much any 2 cards because (I quote) "these games play crazy", then obviously the shove is right. The real question is about the validity of said assumption.

I think you can. If BB is opening here there is a fair chance they will fire again on the turn.

On the flop, you beat only a bluff/semi bluff. Your back end flush draw should be expected to be expensive and if BB is opening to protect a flopped set of 2s or some weird two pair (k2/4s) you can draw and hit your flush and be stacked by a FH.

A lot of the time when I make plays like BB has here, I am drawing to hands that can beat a flush but my made hand (2p/set) is vulnerable to counterfits/draws hitting without me filling up, thus I play out strong from oop on the flop. Against players who do such things will such hands in such spots, you can certainly fold, sometimes, or more times.