I have recently come to terms with the fact that I am the world's worst avid 1/3 live player. Now, before you say you've likely seen worse, I'm not saying I play bad cards, I chase unprofitable draws, I call too many hopeless bets on the river, etc... I really don't do any of that. I do sit down at the table and have nearly zero chance to stand up with a profit mostly because I'm a nit and see monsters under the bed. I lay down hands I know are ahead because they will likely get drawn out on (in my head), and sometimes they do. I rarely look at a board and think "I should have played that hand" because I manage to get dealt the worst run of cards hand after hand (true story).

In fact, I only left the table in 2017 with a profit less than 10 times. Now, I know we tend to remember the bad more than the good and I'm not going to tell you I kept IRS auditable records, but it was certainly less than 10 times this year. None of those were more than +$200 and I did not one time this year have a stack over $600 (double the buy in).

On the bright side I also never stuck more than $200 in any one session. Again, not 100% accurate records, but the running tally in my head has me losing about $8000 this year. That isn't why I would say I'm the worst player going right now. Again, it's because I sit down with little to no hope of turning a profit, yet I still go week after week, day after day.

Probably 60-70 trips to the card room this year.

I offer this thread as a way to let others ask questions of what my thought process is and what I actually do when I play a hand so you know if you do it like me, you're doing it wrong.

If you ever wondered "what the hell is that guy thinking" when looking at a losing player, now is your chance to find out.

Mods be generous as open flaming is fine by me, I've been given advice on here and still find myself a stone cold loser at the game with zero hope to improve.

I'll answer any question as openly and honestly as I can.

8k is a fair Amount of loot to lose on a silly hobby. Have u gotten 8k worth of utility?

Do you want to improve?

If yes what steps are you taking?

I am not wealthy, but I enjoy the game (somehow?) and $8K, while at the top of my acceptable loss range, is something I can afford and am in no way lamenting the dollars lost.

Do I want to improve? Yes, desperately, but I fear the game is just not in the realm of some people's skill set and maybe I fall into that group. At times, I do feel unluckier than most but I ultimately know that to be false. Still, the thought comes into my head.

I do try to listen to advice on here, spend the time in my car listening to podcasts and have a host of books I have read multiple times. It almost seems silly the amount time I spend trying to improve, yet don't.

At the table I know (I think) what the right play is, but I tend not to make it because I know the multiple ways it can go wrong.


Example: not raising with AK in late position because there was 5 limpers and I know they aren't all going to fold to the raise only to see a board of Q-9-3 and see a bet and a raise before it's my turn to act makes me feel like I saved money by not re-raising the AK pre, even though a raise was in order.

ok so you want to improve - thats ossum

Do you spend any time in llsnl reading/participating in hh discussion?

I no longer coach - so plz dont ask. However, I think that just about anyone that wants to put forth the effort can become a winning player (that has graduated high school). This is not rocket science by any stretch of the imagination. The math skillz necessary are very simple.

not raising AK pre is really really bad. You are going to whiff a ton of flops but that is life. And you are gunna whiff a lot in a row but thats also life. Part of winning poker is playing a real strong offense...and not raising AK aint part of that game plan FWIW.

So if you want to get better instead of telling every1 how much u suck i suggest getting over to llnsl and do the following.

check out some of the best of threads maybe read 1 per day
read the hh threads see if you can figure out who the "good posters" are. Sit back and lurk for a while. If you have thoughts post em up...after doing this for a while do you see your thought process evolving?
post up your own hh on a hand that confused u


Most importantly get active. Clearly what u r doing is not working. I have laid out the beginnings for a successful transformation. The ball is in your court. To me torching 8k per year in a stupid card game is bad - and doing zero about it is completely unacceptable. Are you going to step up or are you gunna continue to torch your hard earned money?

I want to respond to a couple things at lease, but for sure the quoted part.

First off, thanks for taking the time to respond. I think there is some value for players on the winning side of the ledger to understand the mindset of us losing players and I hope other losing players might read this and realize some awakening as to why they are losers.

I don't sit at the table wanting to be a loser and make the same mistakes over and over again. I don't go into a session with the thought process of trying to lose a little less than yesterday. The mindset of a losing player is not one of wanting to continue on that path. Sure, for some it's doing the same thing over and over hoping to get lucky and just blaming run bad for their results. That honestly isn't me. I've just come to a point I've accepted I'm just not improving and may not have the mindset to do it. When you know raising AK is the right play and still don't make that raise then maybe the game just isn't for you.

As far as torching $8K, that 's relative, I think. That's $150~/week and that is all money out of my paycheck. I don't owe any casino, loan shark, credit card or bank any of that money, it was all cash. We went to the beach this year and I went to Vegas a few days and none of that is on a credit card so at least I can feel mostly good about that. This really isn't about the money (though I have learned when anyone says that, it's always about the money).


You said that anyone who wants to become a winning player can. That is where you and I differ. I don't think, at this point, any amount of coaching, books, threads, etc... will do me any good. That isn't why I started this thread. This thread is really about me openly and honestly offering up the mindset of a lifelong losing player and why we do what we do. I thought it might be good conversation, maybe not.

Your last question around stepping up or continue to torch the money is easily answered in this case. I believe I have played my last session. Walking out of the card room last night after a very minimal loss, but playing around 10 hands in 6 hours was a revelation. I have come to the point I realize it's hopeless for me to continue on playing.

I know why I've made the decisions at the table that I have and if anyone wants to better understand that thought process then please ask away.

I really dig your honesty and I think its great. Fact is most people would be way better off if they never discovered gambling. It is a total waste of time IMO (I have made my living doing it for 25 years now - not a brag...just the sad truth). I am not even remotely berating you for losing 8k. But the fact is you could have really really great time taking a loved one on a very sweet vacation with that money.

In my tens of thousands of hours spent in the casino environment I have seen/heard enough sad stories for multiple lifetimes of how gamboolin has negatively impacted others lives.

I sincerely hope that you have in fact played your last hand of casino poker - and stay out of the energy suck that is the casino environment. If you havent and do want to get better please follow my guidelines and then hit me up in a month or so and let me know how you are progressing...I will take the time out of my life in hopes of continuing to point you in the right direction

all the best

squid

Just because you can afford to lose the money doesn't mean you should. That 8k could have been put to far better use; savings, charity. investment e.t.c. Move way down.

OP... I have another idea. It doesn't trump squid's help.

Try a different game. My thinking is you are playing NL. Try HE (limit) for a while.

Live limit poker is a losing game (breakeven) for most. My local casino only spreads 1/3 with a full kill. I played maybe 1000 hours last year and made less than $1000. Rake is the killer...... your opposition is not. You will probably lose at this game as well...but at a much slower rate...plus you may pick up enough of the game to win at 4/8 (still hard to overcome rake) or above. The BEST part of limit is (to me).... it's fun if you stop and smell the flowers. It can be pretty splashy at times and who doesn't like playing hands instead of constantly folding.....and still losing playing a tight PF range.

With limit, you may get out of two ruts. (1) You may stop playing a very nitty PF game. I'm not suggesting you open the spigot to full-blown LAGtard....but you will find that playing 87s from early position is profitable when the table usually gets 5 to the flop. An (2) you will DEFINITELY lose your MUBS (monsters under the bed syndrome).

GL

Thank you, sir. I appreciate your involvement in the thread. All the best to you as well.

We all choose our own path in life. At the end of the day your statement is not incorrect, but it isn't like I set out this year to dump $8K into the poker economy and made conscious decision to put the money there. It just happened like that along the way. I do not ignore charities. I suggest anyone that wants to feel better about themselves give what they can to your local Children's Hospital or animal shelter (in that order).

The 4/8 Limit game at my local casino rarely runs and when it does (I've played in it) it's the same group of 10-12 players who aren't the most fun group to hang out with.

I do see your point, though. It would likely be a very good way to learn to play more hands at a lower loss rate.

I do suggest you start keeping records. Losing to the IRS is much much worse than any beat at the tables.

Very solid advice. Luckily for me, they don't tax losses. Though, I haven't seen the new tax plan up close so..........

So maybe fun can be internalized in that case. The 1/3 I play can have a ring of Gloomy Gus types as well. Can be magically fun too. But my enjoyment is internal as I am always trying to read if I made the correct play....and most of the time when the table is somber, it makes it easier for me to focus on the pokering.

Hey pens (and anyone else).....

In the USA, you MUST declare every winning session as earned income. You can not deduct losing sessions unless you are able to offset through the use of Schedule A deductions. If you don't make enough in your day job to allow you to use Sch A deductions,,,, you are totally screwed..... because you still must declare the winning sessions. You CAN NOT "net" your wins/losses.

Honestly, I did not know this. I just assumed you paid taxes on net winnings. So, if you have zero idea of how much the wins were during the year what do you do?

The fact the losses were much greater has no bearing on this at all?

Yep...really sucks for the casual player that does not itemize deductions.

What I would do....... is start a database with daily wins/losses. Simple Excel sheet will do.

Date column
Win column (don't forget to include jackpots and non-cash prizes)
Loss column

Where (optional)
What stakes (optional)
Hours played (optional)
Jackpots (optional; as already in Win column... but I like to separate actual table play for my own amusement )
Anything else (optional)

As far as reporting 2017 wins..... and really the need to file amended returns older than 2017.... is up to you. You may want to consult a CPA and/or a tax attorney.

You seem intelligent. You've already stated your likely leak which is risk aversity.

and to follow through with your question..... if you CAN use Schedule A deductions..... the form will only allow you to deduct UP TO the amount of your winnings that you declared as earned income.

As an example:

You win $1000.00
You lose $2500.00

You may only use $1000.00 of your gambling losses as a legit deduction. You can not deduct the $1500 additional losses to offset any other type of income.

The way Federal taxes work on recreational gamblers is grossly unfair and should be treated with open contempt until they change it.

If you are a losing player having a losing year it is possibly to owe taxes anyway!

Think about how enforceable it is for the IRS to tax losing poker players. There is little evidence of your results other than your own log and the times you win some kind of jackpot which triggers tax forms. It's not as if a losing player is going to have to explain how he suddenly bought a $30k boat. If there is no evidence of taxable income due to lack of any actual income, paying taxes correctly is ridiculous.

I do my best to correctly file and pay the taxes I owe, but I am filing as a professional and am treated more fairly.

Getting back on topic. I want to ask "Why do you play poker? What type of enjoyment do you get out of it?"

You seem very down on yourself OP, let me tell you a secret you might not know:

It's OK to be bad at poker.

I regularly see people who are bad at poker who lose money at it and don't care because they are winning at life. The bitter regs who sneer at them are in fact the suckers because they're grinding out a living while the 'fish' is a successful lawyer/businessman/doctor making 10x their annual income.

Fact is not everyone has the time, money and inclination to spend years of their life learning a stupid card game in order to win the incredible prize of sitting down with a bunch of degenerates and scrabble around with them to grab for piles of plastic chips.

Dropping $8K at poker is not a problem in and of itself. If you're enjoying it, who cares? However, I sense that's not really the case, so pretty much you should do some thinking about what you want to do about that. It's OK to stop playing.

If you are going to carry on playing and it makes you sad that you lose, you should fix that problem. That involves playing better, since you have already identified your leaks, you can just put on your big boy pants and start raising more and folding less.

I'd be interested to see some of your hands that you think you played badly, assuming you can remember the relevant details.

Fair question. I've gambled in one form or another as long as I can remember. I've always done well enough to keep the losses within my entertainment budget. When I say "as long as I can remember" it's 25+ years, at least.

Through those years one constant remained, people saying the only places in a casino you have a reasonable chance at grinding out a profit are the sportsbook and the poker room. I always knew I would lose at pit games, the math just doesn't work in our favor. Those games can be fun and I do still play them from time to time, but I did find the sportsbook and poker room to be great fun. Sweating games in a Vegas sportsbook, having a few drinks is honestly great fun to me and something I think I will always enjoy.

Poker? I'm not a social guy in real life, I have to be the bad guy more often than not at work and as such you don't "hang out" with those people after work, it makes the work dynamic very difficult. I have to always be professional there. My family and my wife's family both have stories of gambling going horribly wrong and thus aren't very accepting of my hobby (my wife is). When I sit at a poker table I can sit with like minded people who are all accepting of the casino lifestyle. We can trade stories, jokes, conversation, etc.. without fear of judgement.

None of that means I don't want to be good at the game and, as mentioned earlier by others, there is something better to do with the money when you sit down and literally have a very slim chance of winning.

That was the very long answer to your question. What I get out of it is the social experience I don't get elsewhere.

Regarding the bolded I want to be clear that losing the dollars doesn't make me sad, losing and not being good at the game does. I've been (at least somewhat) successful in other parts of my life, I have a great family and an above average job considering my background. It's bothersome to me to put the time and effort in to improve and not be able to. Accepting that is the reason for this thread.

Regarding the underlined, hurtful.

Here's a good hand from last night: I call (like always) with JdQd from the cutoff and the flop comes Q T 3 rainbow. Player ahead of me who has played very straightforward leads out. Now, there is no reason to play JQ if you aren't going to continue on a Q high flop. As I sat there I convinced myself that this player would not lead out without a KQ or better so I fold.

Even as I type this I can't believe how awful of a play that is, but that's what happens when I play.

Call a raise with JJ and the flop come 10 high, initial raiser leads out so he must have QQ or better so I fold. When I'm sitting at the table those thoughts make a lot of sense because I remember all the times I called in that spot with JJ only to lose the max when shown a set of 10's or KK.


Between those hands I fold K4 and the like about 90 times.

I'm not as down on myself as it seems, just accepting of the situation.

Are you aware that you are actually allowed to raise in NLHE? Sorry if this seems facetious, but you seem extremely reluctant to raise anything. Having the initiative in holdem is probably the most powerful weapon you can have next to good cards.

Being as risk averse as you seem to be is a huge handicap.

Yes, I am actually aware of the ability to raise, I just don't possess it. You hit the nail on the head, risk aversion is a huge handicap in this game. A couple things about it from my perspective:

A raise in a 1/3 live game doesn't induce a lot of folds. People don't mind putting $15 or $21 into the pot preflop with 9 high. It obviously isn't my style, but I see it so often. So, raising KK is certainly the right play, but I know I'm getting called by 3-5 soooted and so many times it got there in the past that it feels like it's a waste to raise. Nobody is folding and your hand is going to have to hold up 4 or 5 ways anyway, so why not do it as cheaply as possible?

Stop here. What is the action ahead of you? Position, raise size, effective stack sizes, your read on the player? Anyone else in the hand? All this information is important to set the scene.

I do not have a great poker memory compared to most players and I am not the most observant guy around. But I would have a rough idea of all this information from any hand history I am telling you the next day.

You start badmouthing yourself in this hand history but no-one knows if what you did was good or bad, you are missing what matters.

My suggestion, start thinking about these basic building blocks of poker. It's relatively simple to play better preflop poker than 95% of any opponent you will ever meet at 1/3, but you need to think about these things before you auto call or raise or whatever.

All of the above questions again.

Good, that's correct play. You have the patience to fold junk for hours, that's a large part of what stops otherwise reasonable players from beating 1/3.

OK well here's a fact, you can either get comfortable with the idea of raising KK into a bunch of limpers as a default play or you can get comfortable with the fact that you won't beat 1/3 until you get more aggressive.

Again, it's OK not to win at poker. It's not OK to know what you are doing wrong but refuse to change your behaviour.

EDIT

Do you play online? Can you play cheap tournaments, like casual $20 buyins? Reason I ask is, you may find it easier to make correct (aggressive) plays when you are not staring down the barrel of $300 going into the middle. Train yourself to make correct plays for less money, then up the stakes and make correct plays there.

That's a good question for the context of this thread, the mindset of a losing player. Ultimately I know these things are important, but feel they don't matter because I can't change the actions of other players. They will call with garbage regardless of price, position or odds. I feel like at the 1/3 level trying to pay too much attention to what is going on isn't time well spent. AGAIN, I know this to be wrong, but the mindset at the table, for me, is why pay too much attention when they will do what they do and I'm going to have to show the best hand to win the pot.


Basically, see above. Why not get in cheap when I'm going to have to show the best hand regardless? People don't fold. I think I know what you are thinking, "That's right, they don't fold, so you can win the max when you make a hand". We agree on that. The biggest pots I have won are making the nuts and two others can't fold top pair/no kicker. That feeds my mindset of getting in cheap and trying to make a hand since, again, I'm gonna have to show the best hand at showdown.

I honestly don't think it's the money lost, it's not being able to be good at something that is most frustrating. I do not play online. Being in the US there really are limited options with limited player pools.

Thank you for the replies!