I seem to struggle against players who seem to be very very wide, as most flops could be a hit for them.

Any tells or observations to make when playing these types to outsmart and outplay them? I played against one on Tuesday and he bluffed me with 52o. (yes embarrassing I know) but what's the best way to conquer these, just keep re-raising them, or try stay out of a hand if their in it? 3 bet them a lot?

I think my game would improve a lot if I could outplay these very wide players, because their so wide it's always in my mind that they have more than likely hit.


Whats the percentage a player hits the flop from say a 60-75%% opening range?

Thanks, Oli.

Depends on multiple factors, most importantly the other players at the table, stack sizes and positions.

But if you want to break it down into a me vs. you situation as if you were playing that villain heads-up and disregard the blinds you have to pay, the answer is relatively simple: the bigger your postflop edge, the more hands you can play preflop. The bigger his postflop advantage, the less hands you can play preflop.

Ok I get you, so in terms if I hit say a Q on a Q89 board to bet fairly big as he may have a straight draw in his range more likely than a Q? Well he could have J10 but as you say depends on a lot of factors, and I agree.


I vaguely remember he put out a 33.5k bet on the river, river had a completing flush draw, and an overcard (Kh on river to complete a flush draw or a pair for his overcard to mine) I had a Q and that was the worst river. He bet big which should have been an indicator that he wasn't trying to get value but it was for like 80% of my stack and I knew he had put me on just 1 pair.

It's a common misconception. If a player has a wide range, he's less likely to connect stongly on the flop. He'll more commonly miss entirely, or connect very weakly, such that he folds to aggression on the flop or turn.
You didn't say whether he open-raised or just called a raise (it seems unlikely that even a passive fish would just call with aces, for example, although I see it happen sometimes), but let's suppose that we're up against a villain that limps a 65% range that looks like 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 94s+, 84s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, 43s, 32s, A2o+, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o

On a random flop like J95r, only 16.15% of his range will have made top pair or better. [EDIT: I used Equilab to find out this number. Flopzilla also works.]
Compare that loose player with a TAG that opens a 14% range of 66+, A2s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, AJo+, KQo. On that same J95r flop, the tag/nit will have top pair or better 27% of the time.
If we change the flop to AT4, the tag has top pair or better a whopping 48% of the time (because so much of his range is Axs), while the loose fish who plays every single Ax hand only has TP+ 20% of the time, and the majority of his range completely whiffed.

Unless your loose opponent starts being aggressive, indicating he made a strong connection to the board, you should generally treat his range as weak and unable to withstand action.

Download equilab.

Type in a range for villain.
Type in a range for hero.

Type in a flop, see how your range looks compared to villains.

Repeat for a lot of flops.

See that you can call a lot wider than you think when villain is full of **** and see that you may want to alter your range to include more high cards than SC type stuff.

against them you end up playing more hands to the river so you have to play poker better than just pre flop holdem.

so hone up on hand playing skills, and until you get better at them, play tighter so you have better hands to defend with.

There are multiple ways to approach this question because it's not specific enough. But to take an example, say someone raises very wide from all positions.

A common approach you will see players taking at the table is to call really wide. This is not good.

A better line to is widen your value 3betting range, avoid calling unless you have hands that play really well or easily post flop, so hands like pocket pairs, suited aces, suited broadways. 3bet hands like 99+/AJ+/KQ.

Most of these guys don't fold to 3bets a lot so no point in bluff 3betting. If they do fold, then great, start 3betting your small suited aces and suited connectors. Tighten if they adjust.

This is just a starting point, like if they just won't fold to 3bets at all, start increasing raise sizes. If they start 4betting, tighten your range and get ready to stack off lighter than usual. If they fold to 3bets all the time, widen your range a lot. That kind of thing.

This is actually false. They are actually more likely to miss the flop when they play a wide ATC.

A good example of the last point. He is playing with 53o and having to bluff to win.

Forget about 'tells' and all that sort of stuff. You simply need to keep playing a stronger range than them. Doing so is like bringing a weighted coin to a coin flop. Every time you get into a pot with him, make sure you have a range avantage against him. The most extreme example (which merely serves to illustrate the point) would be if you only played aces against his ATC range. Do you agree that in a vacuum you would be a massive winner against this player? Well the reason why we can't only play aces is two fold: We can't be too predictable (or exploitable) and secondly it is just not necessary in order to win so long as our range beats his.

Next, and just as importantly, use position to your advantange. This allows you to control the tempo of the hand but also to control the size of the pot. Soon he'll be the one feeling you!

So- having been armed with the right ammunition, the best approach toward wide players...is to simply not be afraid to play against them!

in real life if you play better than them you need to get in lots of hands with them. as that is easy money and going to go away soon so you had better get it before its gone or someone else will.
sure by having much better hands pre flop than them you will win but maybe not as much as most money in poker is won from the play of the hands.

once when we played n/l lowball draw one draw. i had a player that came in the game too gamble. he bought in a ton of money and soon i matched him. he played and raised most hands.
all the others waited on big hands and won little pots from him. i played almost every hand and raised him back and drew three or two cards sometimes five with him. he made the comment that he knew he would lose all this money but it would only be to me. finally i hit a pat seven and he made and eight and i got all the money and he left after saying thanks.

All true, but I think OP's biggest problem is merely confidence in his ability to beat the maniacs. If he's walking on eggshells every time he plays the spewers then it isn't much of a help to play MORE often against them, but less often.

When his confidence as a player increases, I agree with you 100% Walk before we can run!

Every time I see the headline"Best way to approach very wide players", I keep thinking 'just get as far to one side of the walkway as possible, and then turn sideways'

thegull

post #6 explains that.