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Old 10-09-2017, 03:19 PM   #1
supraman215
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Angry Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

So I started playing online poker at the micro stakes, 4nl, back in July of this year. about 3 months ago. I wasn't completely new to poker I had done quite a bit of research on sites around EV and when and where to bet and call. I put in $20, lost it all, but in another $20 lost it all. then put in $40 and i'm even or a little bit down depending on how you figure rakeback into that equation.

Since I started and was getting crushed I decided to do even more learning. I started off as very Tight Passive, I've moved to become looser and agressive model. playing around 20% of my hands (best guess)

I read Easy Game by Andrew Seidman, 3 times.
The Poker Mindset by Ian Taylor and Matt Hilger
Elements of poker by Tommy Angelo
No Bull**** 6max

I've watched many videos on Duces Cracked by Threads13 over and over. He seems to have an effective strategy. I've watched people play online streaming as well.

I can't download any HH from the site I play on so it's going to be tough for me to do any significant analysis on where i might have leaks. I have played about 7200 hands. I've spent a lot of time and a little bit of money trying to improve my game but I am terrible. People say, move down in stakes when you suck well that's not possible where i'm standing. I also don't have enough money to put into a roll to make it big enough to move up and I am certain I would just punt that away as well. so I'm committed to winning at this level. I feel like i'm the hardest working player at this level, that is not winning. I don't know what it's going to take for me to turn the corner. Every time I think I got it move up 2bi to move down another 4.

Yes I know I shouldn't be results focused. Which would be ok for me. I don't really get too upset when I take a bad beat. But tilt is still an issue for me as I've never crossed over into becoming a winning player. I don't have a winning strategy.

At this point i'm feeling a bit of analysis parallysis. Not knowing what the right call is and in what spots. I realize this game is not easy to master maybe i'm being too impatient. But I don't really want to master it. I want to win at this level. Everyone says micros are so easy. Which is also frustrating.

My goal is to be a rec player but a winning player. and to be able to play 300nl live at the casino effectively. So my end goal is to work up to that skill and br.


Jeff
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:34 PM   #2
Duncelanas
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

The book you really need to get is The Grinder's Manual. A subscription to the Upswing Lab is also worth considering. Unfortunately, coming at the game now with study materials from years ago just won't quite cut it, and much better is available. The mindset books are still solid, but Easy Game is super old (2010?) and I've never heard of No BS 6max, but per google it's from 2014. These just aren't the right tools to take to end of 2017 games, even at micros. Get Grinder's Manual. Work through it slowly. There's a thread here in Beginner's Questions called "How to Read a Poker Book" -- check it out and apply some of the methodology in that thread. You're welcome.

I would also recommend trying to get involved in some hand and strat discussion in the 6m micro forums and maybe some PG+C threads of guys playing similar games to you.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:02 PM   #3
WereBeer
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Not going to give you any specific advice OP but the good news is that when you learn to beat 4nl online you will be pleasantly surprised at the standard of play you get at 300nl live.
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:30 PM   #4
venice10
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

OP, you're facing what a lot of other people struggle with when picking up poker. There seems to be a million things you need to keep in mind with all the videos and books you've watched. Then you have people telling you that what you saw is worthless, because it was written a few years ago.

I'd take a step back. Stop reading a whole bunch of different books and watching lots of videos. Get back to the basics. Poker at the core is about hand strength, initiative, position and skill. I don't care how good a player is, if I have hand strength, initiative and position, I'm going to beat them. You will too.

Therefore, you want to tighten up your game and bet/raise far more than you call. If you open up at all, it is going to be at the BTN or CO only. The bet/raise is important. A lot of players get in the mode of thinking, "I can't raise with this hand, but I want to play so I'll call." They need a reason to fold. Change that to "I can't bet/raise with this hand, I'll fold." You should need a reason to call (mostly to set mine).

The other thing to do is to invest in a HUD instead of more books and subscriptions. Play for a while. Start seeing what hands you win with and at what position. As you get better, you can very slowly start adding in hands where you break even or lose a bit and learn how to win with them.

Good luck.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:34 PM   #5
supraman215
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

I almost NEVER limp PF. maybe 1%. I either fold or raise with premium hands. Sometimes call raises but that's probably 2% of what i'm doing.

The site i'm on you can't use huds.

At my level almost EVERYONE limps every hand PF which makes for going to the flop even when I raise with usually 3-4 other players. There don't seem too many strategy guides that discuss this.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:50 PM   #6
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by supraman215 View Post
So I started playing online poker at the micro stakes, 4nl, back in July of this year. about 3 months ago. I wasn't completely new to poker I had done quite a bit of research on sites around EV and when and where to bet and call. I put in $20, lost it all, but in another $20 lost it all. then put in $40 and i'm even or a little bit down depending on how you figure rakeback into that equation.

Since I started and was getting crushed I decided to do even more learning. I started off as very Tight Passive, I've moved to become looser and agressive model. playing around 20% of my hands (best guess)

I read Easy Game by Andrew Seidman, 3 times.
The Poker Mindset by Ian Taylor and Matt Hilger
Elements of poker by Tommy Angelo
No Bull**** 6max

I've watched many videos on Duces Cracked by Threads13 over and over. He seems to have an effective strategy. I've watched people play online streaming as well.

I can't download any HH from the site I play on so it's going to be tough for me to do any significant analysis on where i might have leaks. I have played about 7200 hands. I've spent a lot of time and a little bit of money trying to improve my game but I am terrible. People say, move down in stakes when you suck well that's not possible where i'm standing. I also don't have enough money to put into a roll to make it big enough to move up and I am certain I would just punt that away as well. so I'm committed to winning at this level. I feel like i'm the hardest working player at this level, that is not winning. I don't know what it's going to take for me to turn the corner. Every time I think I got it move up 2bi to move down another 4.

Yes I know I shouldn't be results focused. Which would be ok for me. I don't really get too upset when I take a bad beat. But tilt is still an issue for me as I've never crossed over into becoming a winning player. I don't have a winning strategy.

At this point i'm feeling a bit of analysis parallysis. Not knowing what the right call is and in what spots. I realize this game is not easy to master maybe i'm being too impatient. But I don't really want to master it. I want to win at this level. Everyone says micros are so easy. Which is also frustrating.

My goal is to be a rec player but a winning player. and to be able to play 300nl live at the casino effectively. So my end goal is to work up to that skill and br.


Jeff
So, first, realize that the goal of being a winning reg is tougher than it seems. i heard one player estimate that to be a winning player, you have to be better than 80% of the other players. That seems about right.

Second, be patient. At 3 months and 7,200 hands, you are basically a poker newborn. You have a little conceptual knowledge from your readings, but your ability to analyze things during a hand is very underdeveloped at this point.

Third, by playing online without a HUD, you are crippling yourself. A HUD gives so much information that helps you place opponents on ranges. It is fine if you want to train yourself to not use a HUD so that you can be ready for live poker, but don't expect to win too much.

As someone else mentioned above, you are likely drowning because there is so much to absorb, so much to learn. The usual progression is:

1. Noob-plays way too many hands, calls bets with no understanding of EV or pot odds, doesn't know why he bets or calls, has no game plan. Everyone goes through this spazz-tastic phase where each hand and how it turns out is a complete surprise.
2. TAG-Players begin to understand that some hands are losers, and they start playing their strong hands strong. This used to be good enough to win, but now it is a pretty exploitable style
3. Value and Bluffs-Once a player figures out that playing only value hands is not working, they will work a few bluffs, c-bets, and semi-bluffs into their post flop play. They may even add a few trash hands to their preflop raising range. There is a tendency to go over board and become super laggy and a spewtard. You have to find that level of aggression that balances your bluffs and value hands, so that you still get paid on your value hands, and you still win a few hands with air. Of course, you will also get smacked in the head when you bluff into the nuts, but it is gonna happen so get ready for it.
4. Balanced play\Light value\merged range\GTO-This is when things start to get really interesting. This is when players know that you bluff, so they will play bluff catchers. And you know that they know you bluff, so you play a wider range of hands for value. And they know that you know that they know that yoy bluff, so they will play an even wider range of value hands. This is how you will see two very good players show down with ace high versus bottom pair. You think they are playing stupid, but they are really about seven layers deep.

It sounds like you haven't spent enough time playing TAG, learning how to read the board, put opponents on range, and then extract value when you are ahead. Once you feel comfortable playing a TAG style (note: this still won't be a winning style, but will be less apt to spew off big stacks), you can start to add elements to your game.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:05 PM   #7
kevin52193
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

As long as you're improving, that's all that matters, wanting to win isn't enough, its going to keep you frustrated. So if i were able to spot a leak in my game and do something different just everyday, id give myself a pat on the back. You got this, keep questioning those decisions.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:22 PM   #8
supraman215
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Hand reading is my weak point. Honestly I play tight. I do not play very aggressive though, of course unless I get a hand.
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:25 PM   #9
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by supraman215 View Post
Hand reading is my weak point. Honestly I play tight. I do not play very aggressive though, of course unless I get a hand.
Using the website http://www.pokerhandrange.com/

A 20% opening hand range would be A9o+, A3s+, 55+, KTo+, K7s+, QJo+, j9s+, Q8s+. That's not to say that your range looks exactly like that one (a lot of people leave out hands difficult to play post flop like K8, or Q9-, and include medium suited connectors and one gappers). But if you are playing 20% of your hands, you are playing some difficult to play, speculative hands. For a player who has trouble reading opponents, easily dominated hands like KJ, KT, QJ, AT, etc can be dangerous.

Also, players fail to pair the board 2/3 of the time. If you raise with AJ, and just get flat called, and the flop is fairly dry (like T73 rainbow), there is a pretty decent chance that your ace is good, or that your opponent will have trouble calling a bet. So, aggression doe not have to be saved for the times you hit the flop. If they were passive, and you were aggressive pre, sometimes continued aggression can take pot without a showdown.

Tighten your range to premium hands, never, ever open limp, and only limp behind or flat call with drawing cards like low pocket pairs or suited connectors if the table has been playing passive. Often time flat calling an open raise or limping behind will induce a player to try and buy the pot (or at least isolate dead money).
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:52 AM   #10
supraman215
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Not 20% from every position. Obviously tighter EP and MP, wider CO, even wider button. and as I mentioned before using a RFI strategy. So from the BTN i'm not going to call 20% but if action folds to me I'm going to RFI a lot more than 20% and c-bet ip a ton hit flop or not depending on texture. Limps ahead of me are sometimes a toss up. like AJs from the button is a raisable hand, but with 3 limpers might be a fold.

Limpers are a HUGE part of micros. about 1 in 10 orbits I fold BB to a raise because on the other 9 free to call. I'm not saying this is a problem, it creates a lot of dead money. yeah 2/3 don't hit the flop but if you go 4 ways to a 2.5x raised preflop you lose tremendous equity even on AA.

when I watch people play 25nl I notice a lot tighter play, people will fold to 2.5x raises with a much higher frequency. Much fewer limpers so the strategy has to be different.

Lastly I realize that 7k hands is not a good sample, so maybe I'm being impatient. But If I can expect the same trend to continue I can't afford to play 100k it would cost me thousands even at 4nl.

And one poster mentioned that hey if you're even now and you have been consistently even that's better than consistently losing like you were and I guess that is one bright spot. I have been consistently even for the past month or so. Again i'm a victim of the small sample but it is what it is.

J
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:18 PM   #11
supraman215
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

If the best thing to do as a losing player is to stop playing how do you ever get to winning? IS my best bet to jut stop playing. Do most people start out winning?
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Old 10-11-2017, 08:38 PM   #12
supraman215
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Any youtubers or streamers people recommend.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:58 PM   #13
Kelvis
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by supraman215 View Post
Since I started and was getting crushed I decided to do even more learning. I started off as very Tight Passive, I've moved to become looser and agressive model. playing around 20% of my hands (best guess)

I read Easy Game by Andrew Seidman, 3 times.
The Poker Mindset by Ian Taylor and Matt Hilger
Elements of poker by Tommy Angelo
No Bull**** 6max

I've watched many videos on Duces Cracked by Threads13 over and over. He seems to have an effective strategy. I've watched people play online streaming as well.
Jeff
What kind of actual learning have you done yourself? How often have you looked at a hand you played and calculated equities? Have you reviewed your game and determined what the spots are that you are losing in?

I have a feeling the answer is "never". You don't learn by watching other people do things because you won't know how to apply it.
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:34 PM   #14
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
What kind of actual learning have you done yourself? How often have you looked at a hand you played and calculated equities? Have you reviewed your game and determined what the spots are that you are losing in?

I have a feeling the answer is "never". You don't learn by watching other people do things because you won't know how to apply it.
This cannot be stressed enough. There is no correct way of playing poker. there is no book to read, no video to watch, that will make you a winner. All the material you absorb as to be analyzed, applied to your game, experimented with, and the results considered. Much more important than the material is the method by which you absorb and integrate that material into your playing style.

None of us here know your intellect, patience, playing tendencies, tilt control, etc. None of us know the game you play in and how the other players play. You need an active process that will let you take the things you hear, read, or think of yourself, apply them explicitly to your game, analyze the results, and then adjust. Poker is not a game that is learned, it is a game that constantly evolves.
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:55 PM   #15
venice10
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
What kind of actual learning have you done yourself? How often have you looked at a hand you played and calculated equities? Have you reviewed your game and determined what the spots are that you are losing in?

I have a feeling the answer is "never". You don't learn by watching other people do things because you won't know how to apply it.
QFT

It doesn't happen as much as it used to, but some posters would get concerned about the advice that was given on 2+2. "Aren't you guys making the games unbeatable?" The answer is that people will read the answers, but never incorporate in their game properly because they would at most semi-remember it and mostly do it wrong.

I've always advised people to post their thoughts about a hand, even as a beginner. There's nothing like trying to figure out situations on your own and come up with your own solutions. After a while, you'll get used to analyzing situations on the fly and be able to do it at the table instead of trying to remember, "Which WCGRider video had this situation and what did he do?"
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:54 PM   #16
supraman215
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Re: Beginner On-Line player LOST Frustrated

I constantly review hands, I have slice EV I use to compare equity. The thing I have the most trouble with is hand reading. I have done a couple videos recently where I just narrated while I played.

Certainly more hand review is a great suggestion. I do need to do more of that.
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