Adjusting for rake - Beginning Poker Questions

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Adjusting for rake

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07-20-2020 , 07:25 AM

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Hi! I was reviewing some hands and I came across the hand below. I want to know if this shove is going to be profitable over the long run. Now how do I adjust for rake easily? Because if V folds we have to account for rake and if V calls we have to account for rake. Is there a simple method to do this quickly? Can I maybe forget about the rake because it won't hurt our EV that much?

PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $1.82 (91 bb)
MP: $9.37 (469 bb)
CO: $2.41 (121 bb)
BU (Hero): $2.34 (117 bb)
SB: $2.23 (112 bb)
BB: $2.79 (140 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with Q♦ Q♣
UTG calls $0.02, 2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 2 players fold, UTG 3-bets to $0.33, Hero 4-bets to $2.34 (all-in)

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07-20-2020 , 08:54 AM

M1ndCtrl

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 78

Thought PS was no flop no drop?

At NL2, you're losing 15bb to rake if villain calls AI at 100bb effective (or whatever PS rake structure is nowadays). So to adjust for rake, I would think we'd just have to include losing 30c in the outcome when called in our EV calculation.

EV = (outcome 1 x frequency of call) + (outcome 2 x frequency of fold)

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07-20-2020 , 04:57 PM

MMSS

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 4,679

If Villain doesn't call you pay no rake. If Villain calls rake is 3.5% but you only need to factor this into the bit where you win because when you lose you still lose all of whatever you put in.

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07-20-2020 , 05:25 PM

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

alright thanks so just adjust for 3.5% for what we can win and we should have a good estimate for EV

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07-21-2020 , 06:05 AM

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,102

EV = EV1 + EV2 + EV3

EV1 = Hero's jam gets called and hero loses

EV2 = Hero's jam gets called and hero wins

EV3 = Hero's jam gets fold and hero wins

EV1 = (size of pot to win)*(equity vs villain's range)*(Frequency called)

EV2 = (size of pot to win)*(1 - equity vs villain's range)*(Frequency called)

EV3 = (size of pot to win2)*(1 - Frequency called)

"(size of pot to win)" would take into consideration rake.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Short answer is likely that it isn't profitable because limp-reraises UTG at micros are generally AA/KK/QQ/AK and are actually very nutted.

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07-21-2020 , 11:06 AM

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Thanks for the help!

Funny that you say that. I have seen a lot of micro spewers make moves like this with middling pairs.

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07-21-2020 , 11:14 AM

rickroll

oddly catty

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 22,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Thanks for the help!

Funny that you say that. I have seen a lot of micro spewers make moves like this with middling pairs.

i think he meant higher than nl2

i genuinely don't think you can become a better player grinding anything lower than nl10 and preferably nl25 or higher - there's just too much random situations where people realize it's not actual money and just do weird random stuff

nl2 will not prepare you for higher levels anymore than the nightly freeroll mtt will prepare you for the nightly $109 mtt

if you're going to put this much effort in just skip nl2 unless this is purely about not caring about the stakes and just wanting to get better in a vacuum

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07-21-2020 , 11:29 AM

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

I don't have a very big budget for poker so I kind of have to move up through 2NL. Good thing is I don't really mind, I enjoy the game and I figure if I haven't "beaten" 2NL then I can't really expect from myself to beat higher stake. So I guess I'm trying to get better in a vacuum haha! If that's how you want to phrase it.

Thanks for the tip though.

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07-27-2020 , 06:08 AM

Royal_K

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 21

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickroll

Wait ... I read almost everywhere that you have to start on 2NL first to increase in stakes. I understand that on this stake there are too many people playing with random everything.

But is that so much different on 10NL or 25NL?

I mean ... do they play there other than on the lowest stake? because it is still microstakes.

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07-27-2020 , 07:09 AM

#10

TheDefiniteArticle

Indecisive

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 14,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royal_K

the move from 2NL to 5NL is the most significant increase in difficulty because someone who wants to donk around playing the lowest possible real money stakes will always pick 2NL

I don't agree that someone shouldn't start at 2NL unless they already have a proven recent record of beating higher stakes online, since 2NL is useful to develop basic skills of value betting against fish, and if you're using 20BI BRM and winning at the kind of winrate only achievable at 2NL, you can realistically move up to 5NL within about 15k hands.

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07-27-2020 , 08:30 AM

#11

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle

15k, really? What kind of winrates are you talking about?

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07-27-2020 , 08:38 AM

#12

TheDefiniteArticle

Indecisive

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 14,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

15k, really? What kind of winrates are you talking about?

20bb/100 ish

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07-27-2020 , 09:02 AM

#13

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Yeah 15k seems alright for that wr, checked with a variance calculator.

Seems high to me though for zoom tables, am I wrong in making that assumption?

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07-27-2020 , 09:41 AM

#14

TheDefiniteArticle

Indecisive

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 14,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Yeah 15k seems alright for that wr, checked with a variance calculator.

Seems high to me though for zoom tables, am I wrong in making that assumption?

possibly a bit optimistic but the general point holds, I'm 100% confident that >10bb isn't too difficult at 2NLz

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07-27-2020 , 10:31 AM

#15

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Yeah 15k seems alright for that wr, checked with a variance calculator.

Seems high to me though for zoom tables, am I wrong in making that assumption?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDefiniteArticle

possibly a bit optimistic but the general point holds, I'm 100% confident that >10bb isn't too difficult at 2NLz

I was playing 5z not too long ago on ignition for a $100 -> $10k challenge and these were my results over that sample.

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07-27-2020 , 10:42 AM

#16

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Holy ****, that's a pretty sick wr.

I'm guessing you're a lot more experienced, so it should be a lot easier for you to achieve, but this shows it's definetly possible.

Any general tips for these stakes?

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07-27-2020 , 10:50 AM

#17

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Pretend you're playing against a 7 year old.

When you bluff--- use smaller sizings. When you value bet --- use bigger sizings. When they use smaller sizings (1/2) call/raise. When they use larger sizings (75%+) just over fold. River donk-jams/donks in general when draws come in are very nutted.

Peels flops pretty wide as people don't tend to triple barrel bluff

Despite what people say I'd argue people at the micros tend to over fold to aggression on average and you can usually tell which players are going to do the opposite.

RFI SB ~75%+ as BB folds >50% and they only 3b ~10% or less.

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07-27-2020 , 11:05 AM

#18

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

Wow thanks! The people that don't overfold are just the fish with stats like 30/12?

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07-27-2020 , 11:17 AM

#19

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Wow thanks! The people that don't overfold are just the fish with stats like 30/12?

In some spots, ye.

I'd say most people over fold most spots micro-mid stakes. Then there's some spots that are underfolded.

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07-27-2020 , 12:19 PM

#20

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

In some spots, ye.

I'd say most people over fold most spots micro-mid stakes. Then there's some spots that are underfolded.

Ah I see. With spot specific do you mean specific board textures/structures? Or is there another nature to these spots you speak of?

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07-27-2020 , 12:41 PM

#21

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Ah I see. With spot specific do you mean specific board textures/structures? Or is there another nature to these spots you speak of?

All aspects of a hand matter. So, I guess it just depends. Just know that spots exist where people under fold and spots exist where people over fold and they are a function of positions/sizings/action/board texture/etc. and its your job to try and figure out how all that interacts.

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07-27-2020 , 04:57 PM

#22

Im Nacho Friend

adept

Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 756

Alright thank you very much for the help! I understand what you mean now.

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07-27-2020 , 06:27 PM

#23

M1ndCtrl

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2020 Posts: 78

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

Pretend you're playing against a 7 year old.

truer words have never been spoken

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07-28-2020 , 10:16 AM

#24

EnochP

banned

Join Date: Jun 2020 Posts: 50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Im Nacho Friend

Alright thank you very much for the help! I understand what you mean now.

You also have to understand that he played on Ignition against Americans. Stars is much tougher, even at nl5.

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