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Old 07-09-2018, 01:17 PM   #1
LuckySkill
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22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

If i'm playing against a unknowns should I fold these hands from UTG and UTG +1 at a 9 handed table?

How many hands do I need to play to realise I'm playing at a aggressive table or a tight table?

If playing at a tight table should i raise these hands to take down the pot? If players are 3betting then should i fold at 50BB deep? 100BB deep? 200BB+ deep?

these hands are marginal i think.
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Old 07-09-2018, 01:44 PM   #2
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

I'd fold those, playing suited pairs will only end up going wrong
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:27 PM   #3
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

I don't play 55-22 UTG in a 6-max game (although some regs do). I definitely wouldn't open them in EP in a full ring game. Small pairs flop badly and play particularly horribly OOP (so you can't profitably call if someone IP 3-bets you).
For EP opens, play hands that flop the nuts or draws to the nuts pretty often, since these have robust equity across all five streets. e.g. QJs, JTs or A5s will connect on more flops than 44, so you'll usually be able to see a turn and a river more often. Small pairs have to check-fold incredibly often. In addition, if you do flop a set with a small pair, it's often difficult to get stacks in when you're OOP, unless villain has a bigger set.
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:44 PM   #4
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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I'd fold those, playing suited pairs will only end up going wrong
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:30 PM   #5
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

Fold these hands in this position regardless of table type. You need a very strong hand to play UTG in a full ring game, like AQ or JJ, and you should alternate between limping and raising when you do play.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:33 PM   #6
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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I'd fold those, playing suited pairs will only end up going wrong
This. Fold and ask for a deck change.
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:55 PM   #7
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

Live or online?

And if live, what image has been cultivated?

If online, I have no clue...not my car full of clowns.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:06 PM   #8
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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Fold these hands in this position regardless of table type. You need a very strong hand to play UTG in a full ring game, like AQ or JJ, and you should alternate between limping and raising when you do play.
If your range already is super tight, you shouldn’t limp any of it.

There are still live games where you can limp small pairs from EP but the number of those games is shrinking as most players gain at least somewhat of an understanding of poker.

Ten years ago, the line limp/call pre -> check/call -> check/raise -> shove was called ‘stack a donk’ and very successful, but those days are long gone.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:15 PM   #9
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

If i'm playing against a unknowns should I fold these hands from UTG and UTG +1 at a 9 handed table?

Defnitely

How many hands do I need to play to realise I'm playing at a aggressive table or a tight table?

You can get an idea from the lobby on most sites but you can usually get an idea after a few orbits. say a whale is going to playing 50%+ hands. You will notice if people are playing 40 hands out of 80 believe me.. You will know its tight when you are seeing UTG opens generate folds rather than it going 6 handed every hand. The Average pot size should also be lower unless there has been a ton of coolers..

If playing at a tight table should i raise these hands to take down the pot? No, they are just too difficult to play from EP.

If players are 3betting then should i fold at 50BB deep? 100BB deep? 200BB+ deep?

If you are going to play them, I would maybe do so if effective stacks are mega deep, so the risk reward factor increases dramatically..However you also need to be more wary about stacking off deep, which then we kind of get back to fold preflop because of the reverse impled odds and positional disadvantage;
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:26 PM   #10
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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If you are going to play them, I would maybe do so if effective stacks are mega deep, so the risk reward factor increases dramatically..
Small pairs and suited hands other than Ax don't play well very deep, unless your opposition is really bad. Bottom set or the K-high flush are good hands to get it in for 100BB but with stacks >200BB you want to play hands that can make the nuts in spots where ranges are relatively tight such as an UTG raise.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:16 AM   #11
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

The only time to play these is early on, when blinds are small, so a limp to try and set mine is probably best, no raise, any raise before you and fold. I rarely play these hands in any position nevermind UTG
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:41 AM   #12
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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The only time to play these is early on, when blinds are small, so a limp to try and set mine is probably best, no raise, any raise before you and fold. I rarely play these hands in any position nevermind UTG
If you are talking tournament, you can play them early when stacks are deep, or you can play them late when stacks are shallow and a higher degree of your EV comes from fold equity. I open fold them during the middle portions of a tournament, unless the table dynamic is such to encourage a lot of chasing.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:33 PM   #13
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
If you are talking tournament, you can play them early when stacks are deep, or you can play them late when stacks are shallow and a higher degree of your EV comes from fold equity. I open fold them during the middle portions of a tournament, unless the table dynamic is such to encourage a lot of chasing.
What I don't understand this?

Also hands like 22 are dreadful hands with shallow stacks to shove in EP 9 handed unless you're so short you're basically shoving everything in which case you will find you should have been shoving earlier in much better spots.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:21 PM   #14
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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What I don't understand this?

Also hands like 22 are dreadful hands with shallow stacks to shove in EP 9 handed unless you're so short you're basically shoving everything in which case you will find you should have been shoving earlier in much better spots.
That’s not true. Even 22 is already included in a standard 30% shoving range. If you should shove that wide at all from UTG depends on antes, but that’s a different question.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:56 AM   #15
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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That’s not true. Even 22 is already included in a standard 30% shoving range. If you should shove that wide at all from UTG depends on antes, but that’s a different question.
In a full ring game with short stacks you shouldn't be shoving 30% from UTG unless you are very very short.
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Old 07-14-2018, 05:06 AM   #16
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

and the less experienced you are as a player the tighter you should play. very important.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:32 PM   #17
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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In a full ring game with short stacks you shouldn't be shoving 30% from UTG unless you are very very short.
Again, that depends on the antes. At ‘only’ 10%, you should open ship 22+ from any position with 4BB or less (UTG+1 is 6BB) and 44+ with 10BB.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:52 PM   #18
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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Again, that depends on the antes. At ‘only’ 10%, you should open ship 22+ from any position with 4BB or less (UTG+1 is 6BB) and 44+ with 10BB.
So do we not consider 4BB very short in 2018? I don't see how any of this goes against what I've said.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:11 PM   #19
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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So do we not consider 4BB very short in 2018? I don't see how any of this goes against what I've said.
You said that those hands are bad to shove with unless you are so short that you are basically shoving anything and that’s just not true because you shove a hand like 22 in a spot where you still fold 70% of your overall range.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:38 PM   #20
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

Fold pre. I've stopped playing these hands (22-> 55) from EP even in really soft lineups.
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:25 AM   #21
donkey22
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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Originally Posted by LuckySkill View Post
If i'm playing against a unknowns should I fold these hands from UTG and UTG +1 at a 9 handed table?

How many hands do I need to play to realise I'm playing at a aggressive table or a tight table?

If playing at a tight table should i raise these hands to take down the pot? If players are 3betting then should i fold at 50BB deep? 100BB deep? 200BB+ deep?

these hands are marginal i think.
Tournament or cash game?
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Old 07-18-2018, 02:48 PM   #22
MUCKQ
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

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Originally Posted by LuckySkill View Post
If i'm playing against a unknowns should I fold these hands from UTG and UTG +1 at a 9 handed table?

How many hands do I need to play to realise I'm playing at a aggressive table or a tight table?

If playing at a tight table should i raise these hands to take down the pot? If players are 3betting then should i fold at 50BB deep? 100BB deep? 200BB+ deep?

these hands are marginal i think.
UTG and UTG+1 if very early in tournament or if its going to be a shove with blinds high and you're looking for a hand with little BB left.

I'd almost never call these if people are 3 betting, unless its late in a tourney and they're on the brink of donking out

But.. Alot of people play pocket 2's and 3's and 4's the same way they would if they just flopped 2's, 3's or 4's.... with the fold button. lol.
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Old 07-19-2018, 08:22 PM   #23
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Re: 22s,33s,44s UTG and UTG+1

Against a table of unknowns, I will limp hands like small pairs or something else that is marginal once or twice to test their reactions to an early limp. (I say this as a live cash game player.) I don't recommend it for most people. You basically need to be able to answer all the questions you asked to understand what I am looking for.
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