ok I am not too familiar with what your graphs should be looking like, but how is this supposed to look in comparison to your winnings. For me I clearly have lost money when not showing down, I am assuming this is normal being that you clearly fold far more then you get people to fold. I am really just curious how much is the difference between Money won with and without showdown supposed to relate.

It is common for this figure to be low or even slightly negative.

Keep an eye on your aggression factor as you may be a little passive.

This depends entirely on style of play. Some winning players have a negative $ Won at Showdown line and a robusto SD winnings, others have both in the positive and still others (which I'm very jealous of) have both in the black.

The only line that really matters, though, is profit.

My SD winnings are huge, and my little red line is always falling just a bit more everytime I play. I put it down to me folding my not-quite-good-enough hands before showdown.

Then I tried playing a LAG style and the red line is what sustained me.

So, it doesn't matter too much, but if you have solid post flop play, it shouldn't be too far below breakeven.

It took me awhile to figure this out also.
It's actually OK for your red line to drop under your baseline. If you look at my graph you'll see that the further my blue line separates from my profit line, the further in the opposite direction the red line gets. It's basically because I are not pushing people out of pots without a SD. You are extracting more $$ from each street AND going to showdown. VALUE BETTING.

The very beginning of my graph was just donkey, tilt, etc. Then as I got that under control and started playing more optimally, I started learning how to value bet. My red $WWSD line got lower because I started learning to FOLD when I know that I'm beat (and maybe occasionally blowing a "thinking player" off of a hand that I don't want them to draw on). I'm really not trying to make something out of a hand that's got no chance. I admit I am not a really aggressive player, but it works for me.

While this graph is for 2NL, it is a perfect example as I see it because that is the best way to make $ down there.
VALUE BET
VALUE BET
VALUE BET

P.S. If you look at the very beginning of the graph, you'll see where I was firing on villains to get them to fold but getting looked up from time to time and paying the price.



As the GhostBusters said.......
and like taking a leak next to your buddy.....
"DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS"

Money won without showdown:

Playing ABC poker at the super micros - your red line should be negative. Not by a lot - but negative. The basic reason why is that your opponents will rarely fold to your bets postflop. And if they never fold, its impossible to win money without seeing the showdown.

At the super micros - its a very common thing.

You really don't need to focus on this. Focus on how you should be playing the hands and how to adjust to your opponents instead and things like this will fix themselves.

actually my red line has always been positive until i hit 25NL. the majority of the players were really passive and would fold when they miss way too much. i played a game where i cbet a lot, very stabby in limped pots.

i had success in 2 barrelling a lot of opponents when i know their "pain threshold" where they were happy to call a flop bet with anything, then fold turn unless they had a very strong han. i noticed a lot of ppl like this - if they called the 2 barrel with the bottom pair or w/e i'd put a note on them so i can take them to valuetown later. that's the way i identified my opponents mainly.

i think it's when i hit 25NL that i found make moves on me a lot more, and i can't pick up as much dead money, that my red line dipped into -ve.

Folding when they miss is "weak tight" not "passive". Just sayin'

lol. I'm kinda curious what your winrate would be if you're winning most of your money w/o showdown at 2nl. Maybe you didnt mean most of your money. Idk.

When I played 2nl I tried to play for stacks as much as possible. A lot of people folded, but if they called the flop bet they almost always called the turn bet. (and river bet if they weren't on the flushdraw).

so my w/o showdown pots would be like 10c and my showdown pots would be 3-10$

Ya I am not sure if it is something I am doing wrong or not, but I play FR games and my $ w/o showdown is def rather negative. Grant it I am def learning in the process, let me see if I can post the graph real quick...

ok ya I def don't know how to post an image on here, ill try to post it if someone lets me know how to go about getting it up here

Gotta load it to a image host such as photobucket or imageshack.us

this +1

I've always had big losses from non-showdown winnings playing taggish 25/16. I mean I NEVER remember having a decent-length session with a positive or even-money nsd line. But my past few sessions I've switched to a laggish 31/23 and have had black nsd lines and close to even-money nsd lines, but no big "steadily falling line" as I always had before. Idk if it really matters, but I'm also getting paid off even more than before with my image, so it seems to be working well, but I'm waiting for variance to kick my ass still.

ur right. i guess ive run into more weak tights than calling stations than most.

nah not most of my money

this thread is repeated weekly

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...ncement95.html

^^ is CMAR's FAQ.... please read this... it has the answer ro OP's quetion + many answers to many questions that you have not thought of yet.

I am playing 5NL full ring and I have been tracking 1000 hands of a player who had probably the most perfect graph I've ever seen. He made 70 PTBB/100 during those 1000 and had only slightly negative W$WoSD!

Now I'm trying to figure out what he is doing right. He playes a lot of pots (VPIP 35%), and has a PFR of 8%. Maybe the reason is that he takes a stab at the flop almost every time (Cbet flop: 88%)

Looking back at my stats (15k sample), I probably have a huge leak there.
Without Showdown: -20 BB/100
With Showdown: +35 BB/100
Total Win Rate: 15 BB/100

What do you think, is this guy just very good or very lucky?

1k hands is pretty meaningless. 15bb/100 is pretty good

The reason this number is so high is because sometimes I win several big stacks from players who go all-in with medium stuff, and I happen to have a big hand. I'm afraid I wont be so lucky during the next 10k hands. Also I am not sure how often you meet players like that on the higher stakes.

True but I don't think he was just lucky. i think he really was playing the other players well. Also saw him playing 10NL a couple of hands (which I dont play yet).