I've done some thinking while hoping for answers here and I realized that my questions don't really match a Sit&Go environment. It makes no sense for me to play online S&Gs because a) I just don't like playing them and b) if I want to get those hands in by practising online, I should play the same type of games I play live. So I'll have to find a way of playing online MTTs for practice because anything else just doesn't make sense. I won't be able to do that in the short sessions that made me choose S&Gs in the first place but I'll just have to organise that somehow. And I'll try to keep that aggression up!

I want to say this thread's advice destroyed my onslaught I was up 10% after grinding like a nit for a few days. I would often limp in hoping to hit something and take advantage of uMicro's horrible post flop play and it worked. Well after turning into aggro preflop I lost all my winnings

Generally I would raise preflop, having one or two people follow me, I would miss the board and fold or I would miss the flop and continuation bet and still get called. All in all this style ****ing blows for me. I wish I never even tried it and stuck to what I know works.

The original thread of this article was in 2008, Five years ago. The game has changed, and so have the players. This is why I hate the policy of the 2+2 forums when they say "USE THE DAMN SEARCH FUNCTION BEFORE POSTING", quite often when inexperienced forum users DO serach they end up necroing a thread from 3-5 years ago and never think that the information contained in the thread may be out of date, stale, or needs context before applying.

oldschool_vegas, the advice in the above thread was aimed a players in 2008. Many players are aware of this simple yet effective opening strategy and have developed ways to exploit the inexperienced player who executes it. It's true that what WCGRIDER posted back in 2008 still has plenty of good use, but the games these days are not nearly as soft as they were back then. Regular players these days are wiser, more skilled, and better prepared. Floating after c-bets have become a tool in many players toolbox, and finding opportunities to take pots away from players who habitually c-bet has become a valuable skill to master.

Being Aggressive is still a +EV position. It just requires more from a player than it used to. In the long run, aggressive players will show more profit than those who play a more passive game.

Good Luck!

Following the OPs advice has helped my game. It's not so much a ground-breaking revelation, more the excellent writing style drives the point home.
It's easy to fall into limping against bad players, due to the implied odds however one forgets the villains are also receiving those odds.
Also the whole table image thing and bluff opportunities presented. And just maintaining discipline.
Was there ever a part 2?

Look in the 'Best of BQ' sticky, they're all linked there.

Javi is right. Some info on 2+2 is a little outdated now as the games change. But, as you become more experienced you realise there is no 'one size fits all' strategy to nlhe. The key is to think about what you are doing, and understanding why you are doing it.

I've only played about 100,000 hands of uNL poker in my entire life but at 10NL and below WCG's advice about being the preflop aggressor and taking down the flop with a c-bet even if you miss is still 100% relevant on February 10th, 2014. Initiative is HUGE.

As far as not calling with anything other than a pocket pair facing a raise or a marginal hand with a short stack limping behind you, I would say that for a BEGINNER that advice is still 100% relevant on February 10th, 2014.

Once a player gets a lot more experience playing postflop, i.e. raising c-bets lighter, floating a flop in position against an aggressive c-better and taking down the turn etc., it can be profitable to call with big aces, suited aces, suited connectors etc. to try to outplay your opponent postflop. If you don't know what you're doing, though, you'll just be hemorrhaging money.

I would say, from my own experience, that it's harder to get 3 streets of value from TPTK now than it was 5 years ago. There are less drooling fish. When you're in position, it's usually better to pot-control the turn.

This

Trouble is, people don't like to hear that. They like to think that there's some magic formula to make you a winner. There's great advice out there, but we all gotta think for ourselves

What ever happened to the idea of keeping villains bluff range in, and going to the flop in position with card advantage with hands ahead of villains open range but maybe not so great against villains continue vs 3 bet range?

I prefer the range manipulation based approach of not turning good hands into bluffs.

ie; villain opens HJ im on button with ATs, flat it, go to the flop with position, ahead of and even dominating a lot of villains range. Oh, and not getting 4 bet can be good too.

is there a consensus on this?

If the opponent will call a potsized preflop 3 bet, I'll 3 bet. If he'll 4 bet or fold, I'll just call.

please don't. pot control is invalid here. the only reason for not betting the turn is if u think no worse hands can call, and this isn't the case - never has been, never will - TPTK is far too strong.

if u still think it's the case, try triple barrel bluffing a ton. do it as standard, as it's hard to have 2p+

I have gone back and forth between bbb and bcb over last few years.

Heres where im at now (w/ TPTK);

vs station, bet bet bet, fold if raised
vs anybody on draw heavy board, bbb
vs thinking opponent on dry, static flop, I like bcb or bc call

reasoning pretty simple: more draws means more to get value from and we have semi bluffs in our range that can get called lighter.

but consider AK on K72r
checking turn:
May get 2 streets from more hands, 99 for instance.
Might induce bluffs from peels with hands like A2s/55 and random floats
many players wait for turn to chk raise sets on static boards so we get to showdown for 2 bets rather than getting sracked/folding TPTK with out getting to showdown.

Not being second best hands that can call is not the only reason to check turn.

are you saying that on a dry board you have almost no bbb hands in your range?

I have 4.2 AF and 9% 3b over 275k hand sample. Am I being too aggressive?

Mr WCGRIDER. Does this applies to PLO too? Will this aggressive play work too..?

Im saying my bbb lines on static (not just dry) boards will be pretty polarized against non caloing stations, yes.

I will have sets, odd ball draws/combo draws (gutter ball plus bdfd, gutter plus pair, etc), 2pr and "high equity air".

On Qs9c3d
maybe I bet flop with As5s, turn brings Ts I barrel and maybe bet river Kx.
mostly on these boards, in position, vs TAG or LAG im betting flop, check turn, call or bet river with AQ.

if my opponent is sticky, passive, unlikely to bluff raise turn or bluff riv if I check turn then I maybe go for bbb with plan to fold to raise w TPGK.

As per always,..
it depends.

I will TEND to be polarized vs dedent players on dry static boards when I bet bet bet, yes.

Just wondering,
is it pretty bad to not take many bbb lines on a static board?
I think it can be fine against players who won't call 3 streets frequently w/ < TPGK on a board w few draws. But I concede that I could ge wrong.
It actually is something I go back and forth on.

like I said, I am certainly going to bbb something like AQ on Q7294 against calling stations and passive players in general. There's just not a lot of upside to checking turn/downside to betting 3 streets if; villain rarely bluffs and gets sticky.

If I can confidently fold turn knowing that I will rarely be folding the best hand, and if there's little chance of villain leading rivers w hands that would fold turn, then I am all for trying for 3 streets.

I think all of this is pretty obvious so I don't need to explain my entire thought process.
I would like to hear the arguments to the contrary.

Am I not supposed to be fairly polarized when I take a bet bet bet line vs a TAG/LAG/reg of some sort?

I think it's pretty bad because you're turning the top of your range into bluffcatchers. I mean if you can't get value by betting 3 streets with the top of your range then you really don't have a choice but to triple barrel almost exclusively as a bluff. but this is exploitable as hell, and I'm not saying these people don't exist, but I wouldn't consider them to be thinking players, unless you consider thinking players to be players who think..just not as good as you...

I liked these comments

Very well put.
I think there's wisdom in that and maybe that is, more or less, what I mean pretty often by thinking players.
Hmm...

is TPGK the top of my range?

And I think, against decent players, you really can barrel off on a lot of run outs. I know I am super exploitable in that sense.

if an unknown villain at small stakes cash bets pot on flop, turn, and river, im not making it to showdown with anything like an unexploitable range.

This is maybe where I am coming from, against players who seem to play LIKE ME I probably ought to be fairly polarized when I bbb. 2pr+ and busted stuff.

but most players will be better or worse than I am, not exactly where I am. Maybe I miss value from too many players who are better AND worse than I am?

Certainly worth a rethink;

What will you do to exploit this approach?

say im polar but balanced when I bbb but only against people I feel are able to fold.
im more value heavy but bbb'ing thinner vs fish.

what should I be worried about in terms of being exploited?

I think there's a miscommunication;

When im talking about going; bet check bet or bet check call, I mean that I will sometimes check turn back in position and bet river if its checked again but only call if lead into.

im not going bet flop, check turn, then check calling river OOP w TP once turn checks thru. If thats what u meant by using top of my range as bluff catchers.

just for clarity's sake

I've made the mistake of calling preflop to many times with aks and get hit with a pair or set ,I'm trying to get around this without being to predictable

I guess the only couple of things that frustrate me, or that I don't quite understand, are that if I raise pre-flop with AK (suited or non, regardless) and whiff the flop, but make my cbet anyhow, and I get one caller....on the turn, he checks to me - do I keep betting? I know the answer is going to depend heavily on what type of player, other situational things like stacks, etc (talking tourneys here), but I feel like a donk for checking here if he checks to me...

...however, I feel like I am just spewing chips here if I bet and he calls and we do this again on the river.

I am going to spew away all my chips because I have a table image at most of these games with people I've played with tons of times that I am very aggressive and will bet with air. Does that mean this isn't the strategy for me? There are a lot of calling stations in these tournaments and cbets don't seem to get rid of chasers. Therefore, I am just hoping that the check-to-me, I bet, check-to-me, I bet scenario on 4th and 5th street is just going to pay off when they don't hit on the river. Even though I didn't hit either, maybe my AK or high-card is good, maybe it's not. I feel like I lose a lot of chips doing this.

yea but what are they calling you with? that's what you have to ask yourself, because at some point you're going to have to start playing poker and not solitaire. oh right, so he's supposed to fold the flop because someone said so. what if he doesn't? what if he check calls 100% of his range on principle, for no reason other than he knows that you have no idea what to do if you get called, regardless of he has a hand or not?

it's no easy answer, but just start thinking about what they have. if you say there are a lot of calling stations and cbets don't get rid of chasers, what are they chasing? are they calling with worse hands than AK high? you know the chance of flopping a pair with 2 random cards is only ~30% so if they call a lot they must be calling with more than that. what are they going to do if they don't hit their hand - are they going to let you win a showdown with AK high, or are they going to bluff the river if turn goes check/check? you get the idea

Damn this thread is old

Stumbled upon this thread after watching Doug's youtube video. Points still seem valid up to 25NL. This still works at 1/2 live as well.