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who was in his right mind who was in his right mind

07-10-2009 , 08:20 PM
Live tournament. aprx. 15usd buy. people are having fun, drinking enjoying themselves. Some are more serious. Some ppl obviously have no idea what they're doing.

Setting: New player at table. Obv. maniac. Seen him play a few hands. Makes no sense, and is the type of player that says with conviction; "you never know, any two cards can win!". And has given me the impression that he thinks that any one facecards are the complete nuts preflop. Rest of table are rather weak tight.

Data: My stack 50k, maniac stack aprx. 27k, blinds 1k/2k.

Situation: maniac is BB, I decide to see how he reacts to a 3xBB raise from late mp with A6off, to which he goes all in. What would you guys do here? Call or fold?
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bazlowsky
Live tournament. aprx. 15usd buy. people are having fun, drinking enjoying themselves. Some are more serious. Some ppl obviously have no idea what they're doing.

Setting: New player at table. Obv. maniac. Seen him play a few hands. Makes no sense, and is the type of player that says with conviction; "you never know, any two cards can win!". And has given me the impression that he thinks that any one facecards are the complete nuts preflop. Rest of table are rather weak tight.

Data: My stack 50k, maniac stack aprx. 27k, blinds 1k/2k.

Situation: maniac is BB, I decide to see how he reacts to a 3xBB raise from late mp with A6off, to which he goes all in. What would you guys do here? Call or fold?
Wait for a better spot. If he had 18k maybe its worth calling but its likely enough that you are dominated to wait for a better spot.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 08:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonprofitgambler
Wait for a better spot. If he had 18k maybe its worth calling but its likely enough that you are dominated to wait for a better spot.
Agree, however, I should add the fact that he has been all in a few times already with some seriously ridicoulous hands and just doubled up as an underdog from 3k to somewhere around 27k.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 08:44 PM
wait
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHair
wait
Yeah, I guess I should have. however, I was so sure I was best that I called. He showed 67off and spiked a 7 on the river. But I guess the bottomline here is, even if you think/are sure you're best, it's better to wait for a better spot?
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 09:48 PM
Follow ur instinct IMO. If u felt ur A6 was good call. Plus villian is spazzy and you want to collect his chips and not have him give them to someone else. You made a good call, just got unlucky. Just look at the good call part.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 11:27 PM
If he's shoving ATC (which with 65o it looks like he is), then you're about a 57:43 favorite. I'd wait for a better spot to get his chips. If someone else gets them, then that's too bad, but I'd rather go for a spot where I'm not almost flipping with him for half my stack.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-10-2009 , 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbackz
You made a good call, just got unlucky
No the call was bad and to be honest the pre flop raise into a maniac with A6, at those blind levels, was bad as well.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 12:46 AM
Maniacs make us all maniacs. They lower us to their level then beat us with experience.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 01:16 AM
If you thought you were a much better player, had a good read on him, you def should have waited and no go in on a flip.

A,6o ...probably not the best raise from mp, into the rest of the field and a maniac in bb.

live and learn.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 01:34 AM
Flip against better players, against maniacs what's the rush?
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bazlowsky
Yeah, I guess I should have. however, I was so sure I was best that I called. He showed 67off and spiked a 7 on the river. But I guess the bottomline here is, even if you think/are sure you're best, it's better to wait for a better spot?
This. The important thing is to learn from our mistakes/questionable plays. We all make suboptimal plays. The better players make fewer of these plays and avoid making the same bad plays over and over. You seem to realize this move was questionable at best. Lesson learned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plecks
If he's shoving ATC (which with 65o it looks like he is), then you're about a 57:43 favorite. I'd wait for a better spot to get his chips. If someone else gets them, then that's too bad, but I'd rather go for a spot where I'm not almost flipping with him for half my stack.
And this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rek
No the call was bad and to be honest the pre flop raise into a maniac with A6, at those blind levels, was bad as well.
This also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grifter
If you thought you were a much better player, had a good read on him, you def should have waited and no go in on a flip.

A,6o ...probably not the best raise from mp, into the rest of the field and a maniac in bb.

live and learn.
And, um, this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brushbackz
Follow ur instinct IMO. If u felt ur A6 was good call. Plus villian is spazzy and you want to collect his chips and not have him give them to someone else. You made a good call, just got unlucky. Just look at the good call part.
But NOT this.....No one here is arguing that A6o is not ahead of an ATC shovetard's range. However, by shoving so liberally, he's attempting to eliminate your skill advantage. By calling in a marginal spot, you're effectively playing right into his hands. You're basically saying, "I know I'm much better than you but I'll go ahead and forfeit my obvious skill advantage by flipping." Its often okay to pass up marginally +ev situations in order to find a better spot. Why get it in unnecessarily as a 53/47 favorite when you can get it in later as a 75/25 favorite?
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 01:42 AM
Yeah, this would be comparable to me tieing my left arm (left handed) behind my back to box my son. I could even the odds to 50/50 but why would I? This guy isn't your son. If you think you were only a 52/48 favorite to beat him in the long run, it's a solid move.

From the sounds of it your chance of taking his money was higher then the odds of the flip though, which makes it a bad move.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 01:53 AM
thanks to all for very good reply's! I made several bad plays during this tournament, but in the moment, I thought I was awesome when we both flipped up our cards for the "race". However, later on I realized that that instacall was my absolute worst play and also became my turningpoint in the tournament. Probably cost me the final table, because the rest of the field wasn't very strong, and when I became shortstacked I lost alot of my edge. DEFINETLY going to wait for a better spot next time. Also, couple of hands later the table got split up and I was sent to a different table, but tried to sneak in to the same table as him, lol! The TD came over and just; "wtf r u doing here?", and I was like; "huh? I'm not suppose to be here? oh sry, I misunderstood". And had to sit down on a table full of nits. Stole some blinds, but was still short, and then the perfect spot came where an average stacked button is on a steal and I'm all in with AKo from SB, however, being so smallstacked the button was getting 4:1 after I reraised, so he called with 89o and spiked an 8. game over. 14th/145th place.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rek
No the call was bad and to be honest the pre flop raise into a maniac with A6, at those blind levels, was bad as well.
No, the call was clearly right. Against a random hand A6o has 57.7% equity. With no antes hero has to call 21k for a 55k pot or 55x57.7=31.7k equity share.

This is the equivalent of getting it all in with 75% equity. Waiting for a better spot would mean waiting for TT+. You are not expected to get TT before he busts or the blinds go up.

Even if he's not going all in with any hand the situation doesn't change much. If he plays tighter you are forced to take a smaller edge.

Raising in the first place might have been bad, because it's expected that the maniac will shove over the button raise against his big blind. But once you raise you are commited.
But even the original play can be defended: The maniac is in the big blind so you only have the small blind to worry about and you have ace high which is great against random/weak hands. You can expect a better spot maybe once a round, possibly less often.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 02:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirrelsUnite
No, the call was clearly right. Against a random hand A6o has 57.7% equity. With no antes hero has to call 21k for a 55k pot or 55x57.7=31.7k equity share.

This is the equivalent of getting it all in with 75% equity. Waiting for a better spot would mean waiting for TT+. You are not expected to get TT before he busts or the blinds go up.

Even if he's not going all in with any hand the situation doesn't change much. If he plays tighter you are forced to take a smaller edge.

Raising in the first place might have been bad, because it's expected that the maniac will shove over the button raise against his big blind. But once you raise you are commited.
But even the original play can be defended: The maniac is in the big blind so you only have the small blind to worry about and you have ace high which is great against random/weak hands. You can expect a better spot maybe once a round, possibly less often.
I was a little loathe whether to say what I did because we do not know the tourney situation. We don't know how many players are left, chip stacks, payout structure or how quickly the blinds are to increase. Without all this info my "should fold" advice was a based on the blind size and where I thought we were in the stage of the tourney.

However, purely basing your decision to call on the maths side is an even bigger error IMHO. He is telling us the table is "weak tight" apart from the one maniac and the last person he should be looking to tangle with is the lone maniac at such a table. You do not base your decision in tourneys solely on the maths. The decision to call is crippling his stack unnecessarily at this time.
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 02:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rek
I was a little loathe whether to say what I did because we do not know the tourney situation. We don't know how many players are left, chip stacks, payout structure or how quickly the blinds are to increase. Without all this info my "should fold" advice was a based on the blind size and where I thought we were in the stage of the tourney.

However, purely basing your decision to call on the maths side is an even bigger error IMHO. He is telling us the table is "weak tight" apart from the one maniac and the last person he should be looking to tangle with is the lone maniac at such a table. You do not base your decision in tourneys solely on the maths. The decision to call is crippling his stack unnecessarily at this time.
I agree that basing the decision purely on math is a mistake. However it gives a good baseline. For example now we know that hero has to have a significantly bigger edge against the rest of the table than the maniac to fold. It's certainly possible, especially if OP is good at recognizing live tells and the blind structure is very favourable. I just don't think it's very likely.

TBH, I think people are basing their decision purely on the fact that A6o isn't a very pretty hand. If OP had AKs and bet/called noone would be questioning the play, even though he would be taking a significantly smaller edge than he's taking when he calls with A6o. (This is assuming that the maniac shoves most of the time, which I think is a very fair assumption).
who was in his right mind Quote
07-11-2009 , 03:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SquirrelsUnite
I agree that basing the decision purely on math is a mistake. However it gives a good baseline.
Absolutely. The biggest mistake was getting involved in the hand at all.
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