Is 4bet AK and fold to a 5bet shove a mistake?

Example:

100bb deep

Hero UTG open AKo, CO 3bet. Hero?

If V only give us action with KK+, why 4bet hands like AK and QQ?

Is it OK to flat 3bet with AK or QQ?

Villian dependent. What does he 3bet? Against a lot of villians I can fold AK without much regret.

But in general, 4b/fold sucks. If V only give you action with KK+, you should 4bet AA and bluffs only.

i cant think of many spots i put the 4th raise in and arent close to being at least half all in with 100bb.

and if against a person i could lay down a big pot preflop. i dont build one early as his hand range is too high to get that much in.

in this case of yours i would certainly not reraise with ak oop. unless i was forcing an all in hand.

No we should never 4 bet fold ak 100bb deep.

Stakes? Full-ring or six max?

4-bet fold AK can be fine depending on the situation. If somebody wants to GII against UTG pre-flop for 100BB AK is probably crushed, especially in nitty low stakes games.

I am definitely flatting QQ in the situation you described. As you stated 4-betting mostly only gets action from better hands.

Also how big are other posters 4-betting that they are pot committed already?

It is villain dependent like most hands in NL.

If he is capable of 3betting shoving TT and AQ than you shouldn't 4bet fold.

Flatting AK is fine if you want to mix in some strong hands to call 3bets with.

I mix it up from time to time. But vs some villains - especially nits I can fold AK pre although it's rare.

1 Bet: 1bb
2 Bet: 2.2bb
3 Bet: 6.5bb
4 Bet: 19bb

In theory you could even put a 31.5bb 5bet in without being obviously committed to calling it off.

Villain 3bets the top 25% of hands, 5bets only KK+ and calls everything else to a 4Bet, 0% folds. I am pretty sure against him, 4bet/fold is a very profitable play, especially in position.

This, this, a thousand times this.

If the action was UTG open AK, LP villain 3b, then with a 25% 3b range IP you can put him on medium pairs+ and big aces. You're more likely behind than ahead already because there are more combos that make pairs than other aces.

I'm fine with a flat here if you're closing the action.

Is this live or online?

Due to usual bet sizing you can never 4-bet/fold AK (or really any hand) 100 BBs deep in a live game. Customary sizing is 5 BBs for the initial raise and 3x for the next one, so by the time you make your 4-bet you're probably putting 45-50 BB s in the pot. That's too much of your stack to bet/fold 100 BBs deep. Online is different given smaller bet sizing.

Depends on the size of the open and the size of the 3-bet, in relation to the starting stacks.
One exceedingly rare spot where I would 4-bet/fold AK 100bb deep is if my 4-bet is a cold 4-bet, and then the next player makes a cold 5-bet jam. In a 6-max game a cold 5-bet happens about once every 200 years, but I think it's always aces, and you don't have the right price to call with 7% equity, even with all the dead money in the pot. Most of the time, if I'm putting in a 4-bet with AK, it's with the intention of stacking off.

problem with geting into the spot where you might fold is that even some nits not the real nits will move in with a big pair out of desperation, steaming, thinking you are pushing them around as you did in the past, or whatever,. and then your fold becomes such a tragic mistake it more than hurts than any saves you made in the past.

as far as only getting a small pot made with 4 bets it means someone is playing very wrong and probably the guy making it 4 bets. especially with ak. you want them out if the pot gets any size preflop.

for those that make min raises of only doubling the previous bet are most all times making a big mistake. you are giving over 3 to 1 for him to out flop you plus extra odds as you are going to c/bet him. it is totally a losing bet in most circumstances.

there are a few instances player dependent but you should know exactly why you are doing it.

I don't want to turn this thread into a betsizing discussion, but I think it's important to note that this statement is not true. At least not at a table of technically sound players.

And even as an exploitive approach against weak live players I would not agree. If somebody makes it 20BB and the minraise would be to 35BB, there are very good reasons to either flat the bet or keep the reraise (close) to the minimum.

not in most spots. thats a bad move. you can conjure up reasons to.

Maybe in the games you play, I can't argue that.

[I'm still pretty sure players in the 200z/500z pools would disagree]

Why 4b AK pre?
--> fold equity. Your opponent has to fold his 3-bet bluffing hands.

Why call it off?
--> It's close, you get like 38-40% pot odds depending on sizings. You can even 4b bigger with AK to ensure you get the odds. AKo has 38.82% equity vs QQ+, AK. Now of course rake reduces our pot odds a little more.
The thing is, let's say you have AK and your opponent has KK. All the money goes in. Some hands later, now you have KK and he has AK. All the money goes in.
So you are basically trading coolers, with none of the players having the intention to fold.
Occasionally you will find people doing some weird shoves pre. Lately I have seen 2 spots where small stakes regulars 5-bet shoved KJs and AQo. It's weird, but stuff like that can happen!

when you make a small raise you give your opponent the option of calling it and getting great pot odds for most draws. and at the same time gives him the option to reraise you any amount he chooses to make the pot play as he likes. i just dont like that spot.

a lot of players disagree with me but thats life.

That's wisdom.


Being able to think about an idea, treat it as your own and not blindly accept it.
and then if it still feels wrong sticking to your own knowledge truth.

And being able to change your own opinion after the same process but ends up being the better choice after reflection, making it your own.

tldr


Thats life! (underrated statement always)

I will 4bet/fold in this spot, NL25 100bb deep UTG raise 2.5x MP 3b 7bb we are in sb with AKo and cold 4bet to 18bb with the intention of folding if someone 5bets.

you see you are putting 20% of your stack in with a bet that is small enough to easily call and you are out of position.
then folding if reraised can be terrible as someone could easily have smaller pairs or two big cards or pair and put you to the test with that raise.

what would the purpose of raising only 11 more with all that action be oop.

Yep.
The cold 4-bet is mainly to pick up all the dead money using your blockers. In essence, the 4-bet with AK is a bluff. You do not want action. UTG is never 5-betting with worse than KK (because he's worried you have QQ+/AK when you cold 4-bet, and it's also likely that MP has a monster because he 3-bet vs UTG in the first place), so when UTG 5-bets, you have a pretty trivial fold of AK.

In 100 big blind deep no limit texas holdem games, "small" 4bets are completely standard. Now, this is particularly true online; it might be somewhat bigger in weaker live games (even if still only 100 big blinds deep). Bet sizing in live games tends to be bigger than online games in general.

Examples:

Raise to 3 big blinds; 3bet to 10 big blinds; 4bet sizing to 22/23 big blinds here is completely standard.

Raise to 3 big blinds; 3bet to 9 big blinds; 4bet sizing to 20-22 big blinds here is completely standard.

Raise to 2/2.5 big blinds; 3bet to 8 big blinds; 4bet sizing to 18-20 big blinds here is completely standard.

Give or take.

That is a particularly weird, unique situation and is one in which hero is not just 4betting, but is cold 4betting.

When UTG raises and someone else 3bets, you wouldn't cold 4bet much at all. AA, maybe KK. And AK could really just be a fold. So you can cold 4bet some AK here as a bluff actually. Having AK blocks some combos of AA,KK and less importantly, AK from the other 2 players' ranges.

With this action, if one of the other two players 5bets, it would be very unlikely for AK to not be in horrible shape, so it would be a pretty easy fold. Just for example, if UTG 5bet shoves and the other guy folds, we are getting about 1.5 to 1 so need 40% equity to call. I can't use an equity calculator right now, but I think we have roughly that against JJ+,AK. UTG is obviously never shoving JJ and maybe not AK or QQ.

This is of course making some assumptions that the other 2 players are regulars and play pretty well and aren't crazy loose aggressive. If they play really badly, have no fold button and/or play way too aggressively pre-flop, then this all could of course be different.



More to the thread title:

Assuming about 100 big blinds deep:

I wouldn't 4bet/fold AK much at all, but the scenario described in the first quote in this post is one where I might.

I think it may actually have to be a cold 4bet from me. Maybe there is some scenario where I would 4bet (a non-cold 4bet) AK and fold to a 5bet, but I can't immediately offhand think of one.

Villain dependent of course. But I'm probably flatting the 3bet in most cases in this spot.



EDIT:

And I'm assuming this is 6max (I assumed everything in this thread was 6max). If it is FR, I may be folding to the 3bet (villain dependent).