The last apartment complex I signed a lease at let me show them my bank statements for 6 months or a year showing deposits to show income.

Most of that 12k is better off in a bank than a shoebox.

Separate rolls would be good but not sure how much you need for each since I don't know your stakes or expenses.

You aren't ready to move out if you don't have a life roll of 3-6 months expenses, plus two extra month's rent plus poker roll.

Physically separating your poker roll from your life roll is for people who can't do basic accounting. People who can't do basic accounting often are not cut out to to be successful at poker. Keep most of your poker roll in a bank. Keep whatever potion of it and your life roll you know you won't need for a month in a CD or other term deposit. Only keep two or three days buyins in cash.

Is $12K a big enough poker roll for you to make enough money to live on? How do you know?

Basically just going for it. I make good money at the 1/3 game at my casino and also do well in the tourneys. I have well over 25 bi and I am over rolled for the game. As long as I stay disciplined I think ill be fine and I feel like I'll be able to play and live off of that. Also I have a roommate so it's not like I'm 100 percent on my own. We would be splitting the rent. Only need to make about 600 in a month to cover. Also considering getting a part time job just to supplement my income if things don't go as planned in the beginning.

Is there a bigger game available for you to move up to when you're ready? IMO, even 2/5 is too small as a long term career. Sure, your bills are low and you can cover your rent and that's fine starting out. However, you're starting your own business and you need to question its long term viability. You need to

• Get health insurance
• Pay self employment taxes (if you ever want to buy a house, not be a criminal, have documents for credit history)
• Save for the times you lose at poker
• Save for unexpected life expenses
• And so on

For a 1/3 player, you have $7500 saved up? That's great for the short term. Get in a car wreck where you can't work for a while, need to replace the car once you get a lousy settlement, and still be able to eat. Will that cover it? Have a business plan that allows for you to succeed later.

Again, the reason to be a poker pro is that you make more money than you could with a day job. Starting at the smallest limit in the house, means you can't move down. It limits your future. You need a plan to have a real life/career. Maybe poker is that, but I'd tell any LHE player to be playing 40/80+ and NL players to really be playing 5/10 or higher unless their life situation is such that they have zero other prospects.

Your best play is to tell them you're a poker player (better that than, "I can't provide proof of income, but trust me, I can afford this apartment fixing personal computers") and that you'll be happy to pay 6 months in advance at a time. That's key (money in hand now is better than money promised later), but you'll continually run into this situation and you'll need to furnish tax returns (and other items) to potential lenders.


Yes, absolutely keep separate rolls. Look at what happened to Full Tilt when the owners decided to commingle business funds with personal funds? No business, even sole-proprietorships (outside of hotdog stands maybe), ever mixes business capital with personal finances. Poker is no different.

I pay myself an hourly wage (calculated based on my expectation and a few other things) and that gets paid to me at the end of every month. From there I use it like anyone else does with a work check; I use it to sustain the life of my family/self and invest/save for the future.

If my business takes a hit (extended downswing), I still pay myself my hourly wage out of my business accounts; bills and other disbursements are still paid like clockwork, but we may tighten up in other personal areas (2 weeks in Europe postponed until pocket aces start holding up ), if necessary.

Lol, at $12k in a shoebox and $400 in the bank. What's wrong with you? I use wires for travel, and I keep chips in my lock box at my local card room. I never carry cash/chips nor do I keep any at home. No reason to do either in today's age.


Discipline changes in the heat of battle. It's easier to hit targets when no one is shooting back at you. It's easier to nail a solo classical piece at home than it is in front of 5000 people watching intently. For poker, it's easier to always play your best when you don't need to win for at least a year. Starting at the bottom of the barrel in stakes and "just going for it" with a small roll is a little reckless at age 24, tbh, but good luck nonetheless.

$12,000 isn't over-rolled for $1/$3 as a pro. $400 life roll is definitely under-rolled.

Also, I'd suggest you actually have a $5k life roll and a $7.5k poker roll, which is a bare minimum life roll, but probably isn't enough to play $1/2 as a pro.

How many hands do you have live? What are your net winnings over those hands after deducting tips, travel expenses, food and drink at the casino, study material, clothing and accessories bought for poker, etc? How much do you need per month to live on besides $600/mo rent? How many hours of play will you average per month?

I've been playing live since November 2013. I don't know exactly how many hands I have logged but I easily have over 1000 hrs since then. You figure on average you see 20 hands an hr. So I'd guess over 20k. And one thing I need to start doing is deducting tips on every pot I win. Food I get comped so that don't really a factor. Study material I pay 25 bucks a month for Bart Hansens crush live poker site. I'm good on clothes and only other expense I would need to account for is personal hygiene materials and gas for my car. Overall per month I think if can play 180 to 200 hrs or more depending on feel and burnout.

What's the name of this casino that comps food to a $1/$3 player? The highest game my casino typically spreads is $75/$150 limit, and they don't give me jack**** and I'm a reg in the game. The only times I get comped food is at the Commerce or in Vegas, and I'm playing at least double the stakes. What's your angle/sales pitch??

Also, what do you mean by start deducting tips on every pot you win?

If you intend on playing professionally, you need to get serious about keeping detailed records. If you don't know how many hands you have played, what you took away from the table and what your expenses are, you have no way of calculating your winrate. Without a reliable winrate calculation you can't accurately determine your bankroll requirement.

1000 hours since November is the equivalent of a full-time job: 40 hours per week. 180-200 hours per month is way more than a full-time job. Very few pros can keep up such a pace while playing their A game. 125 hours per month is a lot more typical. 175 hours per month is pushing it. Furthermore, not all hours are equally profitable. Generally the more you play, the less you make per hour. Partly this is due to boredom and fatigue, and partly due to there being only a limited number of hours that have a high portion of donators playing.

20K hands isn't really enough to determine a winrate with a high degree of certainty.

If you will be paying $600/mo for rent, we can assume you will also have at least $600/mo other expenses. If we assume an average of 150 hours played per month and 20 hands per hours, then you will play 3000 hands per month. From this you will need to pay yourself $0.40 per hand or 13.33 bb/100 at $1/$3. You will need to win more than 13.33 bb/100 to build your bankroll. And if your monthly expenses are more like $1800, you'l need to pay yourself 20bb/100. It doesn't seem like you have the data to show you can consistently win 13.33bb/100.

I'd suggest you get a part-time job in hours that are not so profitable at the casino, then spend several months moving your playing times around to get an idea of your optimal playing schedule and more confidently calculate your winrate. You may also want to build your roll to take a shot at $2/$5, where you might make an almost living wage. The part-time job will not only bring you cash and work experience, but also something to show a future prospective landlord.

Honestly, I don't know any live player who tracks hands. All the RoR calcs, WR, SD, etc work fine with hours. If he has accurate records of hours and wins/losses, he's fine. I don't really care about tracking tips or any of the other stuff, you buy in for $300, rebuy another $175, and then you cash out after 7 hours for $843 -- that's a $368 win. Doesn't matter how it happened. Keep enough records of the hours + wins and losses and you have a picture.

Keeping track of hands per down isn't worth the effort, imo. The whole hands/100 thing is from online players who wish they had PT on live tables. You don't, so you just live with it. Online stats are more accurate. Trying to build up /100 numbers live is just a waste of time. There are people who post on the forums with huge samples in $/hr, and OP can check to make sure that his results are reasonable vs. those samples. Converting to online terms is meaningless, because the games are so different.

In some ways, he doesn't have to. You don't need a Pro Poker Player License where you show a 95% CI of $X/hr. Most people can't prove they win enough, because it is hard to put in full time hours as a non-pro. Honestly, most people who go pro had an extended hot streak that convinced them unreasonable things, and they leap.

I think the game is too small to make a living out of, but I'm middle aged and have bills and a expensive tastes. I particularly hate going pro in the bottom limit available, let's not quibble that 1/2 and 1/3 are different. While you're not wrong that his sample isn't big enough to prove a high WR, the issue is that his monthly nut (which we agree he may underestimate) is too close to an optimistic WR.

If he had this same sample as a 2/5 player who was successfully taking 5/T shots, I'd feel differently. He'd have a much larger roll. We'd still be uncertain about WR. We'd also know that if things got lean, he could cut out 5/T play and maybe grind a little 1/3 to pay bills. Having options helps survival.

I didn't mean to imply that you actually have to count the hands, or track per hand results. Money in at start of session, start time of session, end time of session, money out at end minus related expenses is enough. Doesn't seem he's actually got all that.

I tried to imply that the likely win rate at 1/3 is a stretch to live on. Perhaps I should have been more explicit.

I think you're right.

Anyone trying to make a living off 1/3NL or 20/40FL in most places in the US is attempting to earn an existence. If successful, will likely be in the same spot years later (unless they bink high-five to six-figs at the wsop and obtain a roll).

If you can beat these limits enough to earn an existence, then you should keep your job until you can move up because it won't be that difficult to beat the next set of limits, but it might be if you need to keep pulling your monthly nut out of your roll.

In reality, you're actually flushing a lot more EV by prematurely making the decision. How much is your yearly nut? Add that to your bankroll and ask what limits you could be playing and what your expectation would be in that game.

As for tracking, what Doug says is most common among serious live players, but I do track my tips and I think everyone should. After you see you've spent $30K on rake and expenses for the year, tipping out several thousand on top of that should be reserved for professional, competent dealers which will eventually improve the quality of the games.

Hey,

I was wondering if it was possible to make 3,6$/h by playing micro at PokerStars.

I am a student with a lot of free time and from the place that I come from I can be satisfied by 700-900$ a month. I am planning to play 10h a day for 25 days a month. Now I've been playing holdem since I was 14 (Them uncles..) Now as I am 21 I can say I have 7 years of Poker live experience. I played two freeroll turnaments at one I succeeded and got the tickets to something bigger. Wasn't hard at all, but that is playing against fish. How do you think? Can I make it playing consistent, non emotional, no fun poker?

Regards

sounds very doable.
Say you play 400 hands/hr, which is like 4-6 tables? And your winrate is 4bb/100. So that's 4* 4 = 16bb/hr which is 4$/hour
In a similar situation if you were playing 10nl, your winrate would have to be 10bb/100 to make 4$/hour.

No I don't think it is. Going from almost 0 hours to 250 a month and playing well all that time ain't happening. Especially when you're probably pretty bad to begin with and will require a lot of work to get you to a point where you're even winning at 25nl.

I was a pro gamer when I was 17 (COD4 if anyone is interested) so the 250h a month wouldn't be a problem. About seeing how I'd do at 25nl I'll just have to try . Thanks for the answer MMSS, Fishtankz

You're becoming a cheap employee for stars grinding micros for small profit. Let's say you put in 1000 hours over the summer. You could put in the time at one limit and make $4/hr. You could also cut out some of the playing, study, and try to move up. By investing in yourself, your hourly would be better. I assume that you'd also be more out of the micros rake trap, have better VIP status, and do better RB.

While you can do what you say, I don't think you should.

Hmm Do you think playing just one table of lets say 1$/2$NL? As far as I look at it no matter of what limit's you're playing it mostly depends how disciplined and good you are- these two actually mean almost the same in poker, in my opinion at least..

You're wrong. I beat 25NL for a decent clip, but would lose at 200NL and it's nothing to do with discipline.

River poker room gives 1 dollar an hr for play. So I use that for food . And about the tips I never really tracked my tips to cocktail servers and to the dealers. It would be interesting to see how much money I give to them in a month.

Thanks a lot for the post. It seems like I am not ready yet and should hold off. There's a lot more to think about that haven't crossed my mind.

I have an app that tracks all this

I've made money playing cod4 on ps3 (less of a standard than compared to 360 no doubt) but I can tell you the argument is completely different. When you have a team who picks up your slack when playing badly (as you do them vice versa) makes up so much difference

If you don't have the experience I'm not saying it's impossible but it's very unrealistic. If you have the ability to try it for 6 months and lose very little as a result go for it.

I think we need to hear more about how it's possible to make money playing COD4 online.

Because that'd be like, you know, my dream job. How's it done?