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Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Raising small pocket pairs from any position?

03-11-2014 , 03:12 AM
I have just started playing full ring games at 2nl.

I have a friend who has been playing poker for a couple of years and now plays at 25nl. He crushes 2nl, 4nl and 5nl.

We talk about set mining as one of the big money winning strategies at micro stakes and he reckons that you should raise a 22-99 pocket pair from any position?

Does this strategy work for full ring games or just 6 max?
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 04:15 AM
Thats what I do, might not be worth much though aha.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 04:45 AM
I'm not even opening 22-44 at 6-max from EP.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 05:01 AM
I agree with the implication meale made.

Unless you are pretty dynamic post flop, it is going to be hard to be profitable opening small pocket pairs in EP in FR.

I would recommend folding them although I think you are lumping some stronger hands into this group.

99 for example is not comparable to 22 and should be opened from any spot on the table imo.

I think grouping 22-66 as small pocket pairs and folding them as a default in EP in FR is more reasonable.

Good luck.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 05:15 AM
@meale/hogg

Would you raise 22-44 from MP in FR?

Last edited by DJAbacus; 03-11-2014 at 05:16 AM. Reason: spelling
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAbacus
@meale/hogg

Would you raise 22-44 from MP in FR?
Was just about to ask the same question! Small pairs have always been quite troublesome for me in EP.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 05:35 AM
Can't remember **** about FR opening ranges haha sorry!
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 06:13 AM
Not raising 33 and 44 in EP seems silly, 22 is pretty marginal but I'd be opening it on most tables.

FR I have no idea.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 06:18 AM
FR I fold 55- in EP if the table is not fishy enough.
With fishes the IO are too high to fold them.
6max I usually open all of them in EP, but I'd understand that someone wants to fold 55-.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 06:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMSS
Not raising 33 and 44 in EP seems silly, 22 is pretty marginal but I'd be opening it on most tables.

FR I have no idea.
They're really not much different to 22... Look at your DB with 22-55 from EP. A lot of people find that 55+ is where they start winning as far as PP from EP.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 07:57 AM
I'm a US player who plays 4NL, 6NL and 10NL on JuicyStakes, both FR and 6max. On *that* site, a) very few PFRs get called, b) when you do get a call of your PFR you get a lot of folds to your c-bet, c) most villains don't put one penny in the pot postflop without at least top pair and d) a large percentage of villains slowplay monsters.

I actually open any ace, suited king, suited connector 76+, pair or two broadways from all positions, fold to any PF 3-bet unless I'm way ahead of their 3-bet range and c-bet nearly 100% heads up. If they don't fold to my c-bet I usually don't put another penny in the pot without at least TPTK if not a monster (depending on stats of course, but really, most of those villains aren't continuing beyond the turn without at least top pair).

When I click the 2/3-pot button preflop with the intention of winning the blinds, I'm investing .11 to win .06 (the 2 blinds) so it has to work 2 times out of 3.

If I get a call, the pot is now .28 (my .11 PFR, their .11 call and the blinds). So now if I c-bet half pot with a goal of taking it down, my investment in the hand is .25 to win .17, so that's what, 3 times out of 5 it has to work?

Here's the problem - if I half-pot the c-bet and get a call, the pot on the turn is now .56 (ignoring rake for the moment) and I'm out of position, so if I want to take one more half-pot stab in the hope that he folds, suddenly my investment is .53, and my opponents have put .31 in the pot between them. I'm also usually out of position at this point, so the correct thing to do is usually give up. I have plenty of other holes in my game to worry about before trying to figure out when are good spots to double-barrel out of position.

What does this have to do with the OP?

If you're at the type of table I described at the beginning of this post, you can open very wide from all positions with the CAVEAT that YOU MUST STICK TO THE PLAN and give up on the hand if you don't get a fold to your c-bet.

I don't know about other sites, but on JuicyStakes, I can't prove this but I think most flats of PFRs are setminers who give up if they don't flop their set. They don't know that you have 22-55 and they don't care that you have 22-55. They're looking at their own cards and not accounting for yours.

Hope this helped.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by meale
They're really not much different to 22... Look at your DB with 22-55 from EP. A lot of people find that 55+ is where they start winning as far as PP from EP.
blocker effects and reverse implied odds but ye difference between 22 and 33 isn't a huge amount but they they're all still profitable especially at the lowest stakes.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 10:40 AM
6max I open all pairs from all positions. Having checked a relatively small sample, most of my wins with these specific hands comes from cbet on the flop getting so many folds as I guess my perceived range from EP is so strong. So really it's irrelevant that they happen to be pocket pairs that I'm opening as I'm effectively bluffing the flop most of the time. Hmmmm.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 11:19 AM
Open raising any pocket pair from any position at 6max is standard. He asked about full ring though boys
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 11:36 AM
Ok.. Thanks guys... So the answer is yes, no or maybe depending on your post flop strategy. Perhaps the answer for a beginner is to fold 22-66 UTG, other positions call the callers and raisers, fold to folders or 3 bets. Cbet the flop. If you hit the set try to get the chips in and if you miss hope they fold....
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAbacus
Ok.. Thanks guys... So the answer is yes, no or maybe depending on your post flop strategy. Perhaps the answer for a beginner is to fold 22-66 UTG, other positions call the callers and raisers, fold to folders or 3 bets. Cbet the flop. If you hit the set try to get the chips in and if you miss hope they fold....
No, UTG in FR you should almost definitely fold 22 and other low PPs.

In 6max they are probably some of the easiest and profitable hands you can play so you shouldn't fold 22 UTG.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 12:19 PM
The only reason why I don't like open raising 22-55 from EP Is because there is a higher chance of facing a 3bet which I don't like calling with small pocket pairs. (FR)
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 12:34 PM
Although I understand why some beginners want to use a static starting hand chart, it shoud be noted that good starting hand choices highly depend on table dynamics. I'm never folding 22 EP if there's a fish in the blinds with a full stack.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 01:19 PM
Some of you guys need to realise that beginners aren't really interested in what you do now at xnl after z years of playing. They are interested in you telling them 'what you did when you were a beginner' or 'what you would do if could go back and change what you did as a beginner'.

Bear that in mind in future before posting in the forums. Try to answer the OP directly thinking about what you would need if you were just starting out.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJAbacus
Some of you guys need to realise that beginners aren't really interested in what you do now at xnl after z years of playing. They are interested in you telling them 'what you did when you were a beginner' or 'what you would do if could go back and change what you did as a beginner'.

Bear that in mind in future before posting in the forums. Try to answer the OP directly thinking about what you would need if you were just starting out.
You are right.
I don't know if my answers fell in this category though, so I'll try to make it as clear as possible:

If you are a total beginner and learnt about hand rankings last week, then you should fold 88- in EP and only play premium hands.

If you are a bit more advanced and understand basic table dynamics:
- It will be profitable to open raise any pp from EP if there are enough passive fishes at the table. Just make sure that you have read the CoTWs on cbetting and board texture.
- If the table is decent and there are no fishes in the blinds, then folding 55- is more advisable.
- Now this one might be more controversial, but when there is a maniac at the table, I think it is actually ok to open limp 55- at the nano-stakes. If you do that at 10nl and higher regs will figure you out and will probably be able to exploit you badly, but at 2nl and 5nl everyone is just too passive.

Now in general I think that nanostakes table should be fishy enough to allow you to open any pocket pair in EP as a standard. However if you don't feel confident folding is ok as the value here should be thin, especially for a beginner, and you probably have more important spots to worry about.

The important thing here is that even though you are a beginner, it will be useful for you to learn about basic table dynamics and to include it in your strategy. Learn to spot the passive fishes, the maniacs, the lags, the tags, the weak-tight players and choose a strategy accordingly.
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03-11-2014 , 04:16 PM
Very nice posts DalTXColtsFan and Babarberousse.
+1
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 05:15 PM
I guess if you're in position, you may get some fold equity from betting.
And you will hit a set 1 in 7 times, where you will make back some of your money.
Maybe I will play more PP's, knowing I will probably lose.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 05:31 PM
Yes, Babarberousse...that's a really nice post which gives me a clear idea of what I need to think about and how to proceed
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 07:25 PM
I open any pocket from any position. I used to limp small pp a lot, costed me money in a long run. Players at 2-10 nl are so bad in general that you can profitably open any pp if your postflop is decent.
Raising small pocket pairs from any position? Quote
03-11-2014 , 08:13 PM
Doesn't matter @2NL but higher then u need to start opening 22/33/44 & suited conncetors etc UTG. Not EVERY time, because it depends on various table dynamics, but more often than not

Otherwise you will almost never get action/reraised when have a monster & its just ridiculously easy for an opponent to put you on a hand. They know you have a good pocket pair or 2 high cards every single time

U may even lose some money doing this but you'll make it back when u have bigger hands & a looser table image
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