Hello everyone,

Getting back into poker finally after a couple years away.
I found a nice little home poker league. Every other Saturday night, over the next few months, $60 buy-in every game.
Quality of the players range from not so good, to mediocre, to very good/aggressive. There’s about 25-30 players in all.
I have the Harrington books and also the Raise Your Edge training site. My wife bought it for me as a gift a few years back. I’ve always been a Harrington guy though.
Which do you recommend as study material for a game like this?
I’m tossed between the Harrington books being to outdated/conservative and RYE being for larger buy-in/higher talented tournaments?

And advice is very appreciated!

Sounds like your game is a standard live game, i.e. there's some players making fundamental mistakes that you want to exploit, and some better players who probably aren't as good as you think they might be, but can probably be easily avoided. The answer is whichever material will teach you exploitative play - which is the exact opposite of the inevitable "buy a solver ldo" post which will no doubt come in in due course. For this sort of tournament, what Harrington will teach you (I'm assuming you are referring to the original HOH series) still seems perfectly applicable

If you are able to play online I'd go with something like GTOwizard.

Create a free account atleast and study the preflop stuff a bit or I guess even if you are not able to play online go with one of these type of programs that give you free preflop ranges where you can study playing against a bot postflop ,etc

The key is learning the why not the what though....especially as your players will probably be deviating quite a bit from optimal strategy. If you can learn why you are doing certain things or deviating then you will be ahead of the game and practicing or learning elite strategy is a good step in that direction.

Most of those programs it's like getting a shot to test your skills against Michael Jordan. Sure you will not be playing Michael Jordan in your day to day games but doesn't mean you cannot learn alot from him.

The problem with this is that it's very difficult for many people to know the exploitative play if they are incapable of telling someone the optimal play.

like clockwork...

It's not some kind of difficult problem. It's just a fact. There is a baseline and then there is the exploitative play. If you do not know the baseline it's often going to be difficult to understand the exploitative play.

You can ramble all you want and maybe your games are that soft that it doesn't matter but if you don't know the "why" to what you are doing you really are probably the fish once you start playing players that actually understand the baseline play to the spot.

It seems like everyone is saying the same thing, just in a different way?

For this kinda game, exploitive seems the way to go, which is what the original Harrington books are correct?

And if the “solver” material, such as RYE, teaches optimal play but I’m not playing with optimal players, wouldn’t an exploitive strategy be the way to go?

Plus if I remember correctly, Harrington does teach all the how’s and the why’s, so as far as what cneuy3 was saying about how it’s so important to know the “why” (which I agree with 100%) would that give another thumbs up for the HOH series?

solver material teaches you how to lose the least. in any real life game, you want to take a strategy that makes you win the most. certain people here, when holding a set on the river on a dry board, would go:

a) put situation into solver
b) run 69420 simulations
c) have solver tell you to bet 40% of pot or whatever
d) bet 40% of the pot

whereas, in real life, you

a) look at the mistakes villain makes
b) choose your action to exploit them

i do not need to know that 40% is "optimal" if i know that villain is a calling station who will call a good size of the pot with any reasonable holding. or that betting is not optimal if opponent is a maniac who will see a check as a sign of weakness. or that, if i don't actually have a set, i do not need to know what an "optimal" bluffing frequency is if i know villain is a calling station who i cannot get to fold. as long as my base game isn't completely terrible, it really is as simple as understanding villain's tendencies and making the correct adjustments.

there's seriously so many people on here who try to come up with solutions where problems don't exist because it's a $60 bar donkament we're playing in where the play is usually obvious, and what is needed in a game against (insert list of gto nerds here) to try to not be the first person to get stacked while you all lose to rake is just leaving so, so much money on the table in actual games which exist in real life

Thank you so much for all the replies, I really appreciate them.

So sixfour…..the original HOH should more than cover everything that you stated, or should I get his revised version?

Or do you recommend I get this information/‘material somewhere else?


Thanks again!

I'm not aware that there is a revised version, nor have I read it if there is one

“Harrington on Modern Tournament Poker.”

Came out in 2014 if I’m not mistaken. I’ve read through it when it first came out, but I still fall back and reread the original series.

The first 1/2 of the updated version pretty much recaps the original anyway.

So since you haven’t read the revised book, thoughts on his original books for everything we discussed throughout this thread.
You think his original books are still helpful?

Not read HoMTP. 2014's long since I lost interest in NLHE. You were kind of implying that there'd been an updated version of the original book, which 2+2 does from time to time, or at least that's what I interpreted it as. It's my understanding that's a new book, although naturally there is going to be a fair bit of overlap in the material that's in the previous series.

I'd still say that the initial series has value, but if you've read more than one of my posts I very much operate from a "beat the opponent in front of you" rather than a "try not to lose to a perfect opponent who you shouldn't be playing anyway" perspective, and the mistakes players were generally making 20 years ago are still the same kinds of mistakes they're making now

Listen man, probably a million videos by now on YouTube to fancy your curiosity on how to be better in No Limit Holdem.

Contrary to what sixfour says I'd wax the floor with him in probably any game of poker. The bottom line is you need to drive home the fundamentals just like any skill game to really understand the exploits of the game. Maybe I'm wrong recommending studying preflop ranges from top solver schools but the bottom line is the game starts with preflop and if you don't know the "why" to what you are doing you are going to be at a huge disadvantage to the players that do know in this case. GTO is actually way more aggressive and calling than the typical human and I'm not advocating someone should replicate that type of play. It's just a baseline for formatting a solid strategy. Most feel players think they are optimally exploiting but they actually are not in most cases.

Idk, gl and plenty of options for you to learn out there.

Thanks for the replies guys….I really appreciate it!

Small winning micro stakes, rec/for fun player coming back to cash after 15+ years playing MTT's or barely playing at all. I played 50nl during the Moneymaker poker boom. I have a bookcase full of them old 2+2 books, Harrington, Doyle, Dnegs and many other poker books consider good-great for that period/era. I agree with sixfour and think they still have value...I mean depending on stakes you plan to play/start at I started at 2nl and plan to work my way up too 50-100nl if possible. My foundation/game is based off mostly from them old books and I'm currently I winning micro player. I did purchase Peter Clarke's "From the Ground Up" course at runitonce poker and would recommend that for the price $50.

Also agree with sixfour when he says micro stakes hasn't changed much at least 2nl and I've watching some 5nl as I'm just about ready to take shots there and it seemingly doesn't play much different then 2nl. The only real difference I see in micro stakes compared to years ago is the number of fish is drastically lower now which makes table selection a bit more important. Still plenty of complete fish though even for a guy like me who still plays pretty terrible and is rebuilding his cash game. If I can still be a winning player pretty much anyone can.

FWIW I have no intention of studying alot of GTO and won't be playing mainly if at all GTO. With that said I do think it' important/helpful to know a bit and study GTO and how to play other styles of poker. It's why I have a whole book shelf of old poker books and keep studying newer material weekly. It's always been my opinion the more you know and knowledge you have the better prepared to succeed at the table you'll be even if you don't or never play a certain style it's a gotta be good or a bit helpful to know a bit about it. That is if the plan if too move up and play 25nl, 50, and 100nl.

Good luck with your poker journey donkey22 may you run well at the table.



Cheers!!!

Thanks a lot for your reply Hardongear, I really appreciate it.

Well, you are asking as if it is extremely quick to learn how to play. Learning poker takes a loooong time. But I suppose you are asking about which one should be your study material in the meantime.

If you want a straightforward answer and want to choose between the 2, I recommend Harrington on Hold'em. It is a straightforward and easy to learn approach. And you could simply build on that with learning more on TAG and Exploitative styles.

I was told to check out Raise your Edge by a more experienced poker player. However, I checked it out and I wouldn't go for it. The reason is, the course states it teaches GTO and ICM, and basically I wouldn't go near GTO. GTO isn't the best kind of strategy. Exploitative play is more profitable. Moreover, GTO is way too complicated to learn, and you have to be some sort of robot to work it out.

I don't play at your stakes, plus I really only play online, but I started poker with Harrington's books 15 years ago. I have all 3 in print, and they were where I learnt to play from. I also re-started playing poker recently, since I had stopped playing in between those years because I was focusing on other things. But I played based on Harrington's during this period of 15 years at Microstakes and Low stakes MTTs and have been winning.

I got back into playing poker last year, and I was sort of in the same spot as you, thinking: How do I improve my game? About that, what I am personally learning now is how to put opponents on ranges. And, although I haven't read the Harrington books for a while, I think that that is something that they don't cover eg concepts such as Range advantage, Hand Advantage, or even as far as counting combos. These are the things I am currently trying to learn.

Hey Tilted,
Thanks for your reply. If I came across like I thought it was quick/fast to learn poker, that was definitely not my intention. If it was easy and quick to learn, everyone would be good at it. I realize that poker is a game that could be played for a lifetime and you could still not learn everything.

I’m just trying to figure out the best road for me to take as far as study goes, that’s all. There is such an overwhelming amount of info out there these days, and it seems very difficult to know which direction you should go in.

Some players swear by the exploitative strategy, others swear by GTO, or a combination of both.

Your post helped a lot though, and helped kinda confirm what I was already thinking.

GTO is still considered "the best thing after sliced" after loads of top players. But if you search more you will see that not everyone agrees to that. It also a of disadvantages, both because it is super difficult to learn by a human, and because exploitative is more profitable, and because it doesn't apply to lower stakes levels.

Between the 2 I suggested Harrington's approach, and that is because his method is just easier to learn. But, to be honest, it is very basic, and involves only putting your opponent on a set of hands.

I think the best way to go is to learn how to "play range". Briefly, that is, how to construct a range for your opponent, and then consider your own possible range, and then consider Range Advantage and Nut Advantage, among some other variables and parameters along with the board, about how to make decisions on how to act.

Personally I was helped by some guides by Johnathan Little on Postflop strategy where he presents exactly that. Maybe it can help you too.

If you decide to learn how to "play range", follow my posts here, and study blog where I am posting my learning progress around that. https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...94/?highlight=

Enjoy your getting back in the game.

The more and more research and reading I do on the subject of GTO strategy, the more I’m gathering that it’s a strategy that is worth learning if you’re going to be competing against exceptional MTT players playing the top of their game….which I doubt very highly that I will ever have the opportunity to do.

Unless someone wills me a large sum of money and I get to fulfill one of the main things on my bucket list and play in the WSOP, I will not have the opportunity to play against those guys.

So the games I’m talking about are mainly home game tournaments, charity/fundraiser tournaments, and possibly local casinos MTT’s.

So if that’s the case, doesn’t it seem like exploitive strategy is definitely the way to go…..which is what Harrington teaches? Although I do agree with you 100% that it’s a very basic and easy to learn strategy.

There is this crazy misconception that GTO is bad for lowstakes and you should avoid it and play "exploitative", which is absolute nonsense.
First off, if you really play solid GTO on low stakes, you will absolutely demolish it. Its gonna be a bloodbath. Could it be even better if you deviate in some spots to exploit your opponent's mistakes? Yes, of course. But how do you want to exploit someone by deviating from GTO because you noticed your opponent doesnt play GTO.... WHEN YOU DONT EVEN KNOW THE GTO STRATEGY?
GTO is the baseline. You cant skip GTO and start exploiting people. Yeah if there is a huge nit on your table, you can probably figure out that you cant stack off with him too light, even without deep theoretic knowledge. But thats about it. Any serious "explotative play" is always based on understanding GTO.

Also neither Harrington books nor RYE are "exploitative".

Harrington books, as most books, are just outdated. They give strategy advices based on knowledge before solvers. That means there is not much solid math and logic behind it. The way we learned poker in the old days was that some players were winning and we paid them to write books or make videos and we hoped that what worked for them will work for us. But any strategic advice from that time is laughable compared to the tools you can use today.

And Raise your Edge is also not exploitative in any way, even though it is what Bencb tries to tell his customers. I am just making DB review for a guy who bought his $999 course and he was confused about some pretty basic ranges I was showing him. Not what he was used to in RYE masterclass. So he showed me RYE ranges. And I cant stress how trash they are. Its not GTO, its not exploitative in any way. Its just a hand grid that Ben opened in MS Paint and colored up some squares based on how he felt. No wonder people dont learn any strategic concepts when learning from those.

Just get DTO or GTO Wizard. If you really want to read a book, I assume the new book from Dara might be ok, it probably costs like 10 bucks, so why not. Ive read the PKO book from him and it was pretty reasonable.

^ "chatgpt, please write me a novella on why poker is a dead game in 2023 in the style of a grifter desperately trying to sell me a bag of magic beans"

I'm in line with "MTT DB Review" for the most part and agree with his line of thought that probably going for something like GTOWizard or DTO is much better than paying $1000+ dollars for some course. In the case of GTOwizard they also provide coaching with the product.

You can also find plenty of really good free information out there on youtube these days as I've already mentioned previously on this topic.

I do disagree about "MTT DB Review's" critique on the ranges provided from RaiseYourEdge. Pad's created a poker course for MTTs which I've seen and is amazing by the way which didn't even include preflop ranges at the point when I looked over the product. I've seen RaiseYourEdge ranges and while he could have probably easily provided perfect GTO preflop ranges his ranges are more in line with what a human might be able to remember and play easier in game and certainly not giving up huge EV against the player field.

Bottom line is I agree with your comments about learning a solid baseline but also disagree that someone needs to drill home the exact **** that is out there. It's much more important to have a reason behind your play or to understand the mechanics behind spots in poker.