I may be way out of my depth here, but Roosters frustration may stem from the fact that he is looking at hands as isolated incidents. A game of poker is made up of hundreds of hands. And a poker career, pro or amateur, consists of thousands of hands. Making good decision against calling stations, must pay off over time. You have to make button raises, defend blinds make continuation bets and value bets in the right situations if you intend to make money in the long run. Otherwise, you will be blinded away and frustrated as hell. These calling stations are chasing and hitting, but they can't all be netting profits, can they? Perhaps, one night person A comes out ahead, but goes bust the next night and person B does well the next night, etc. Over time, though, bad play will result in these guys losing more than they win. The advice of understanding a player's range of hands that he will call with pre-flop, post-flop, turn and river is the key to taking advantage of their loose play. It ain't easy and it may require you to take notes on these guys. But, if you're playing with the same guys regularly, that's what it takes to be an overall winner. Most people simply don't have the discipline to take the time and effort to really study their opponents habits, but that's what separates the pros from the amateurs. Maybe you just need to play with better players who make 'normal' skilled decisions. Playing with rank amateurs can and will drive you absolutely insane, but it seems that if you play tight and build big pots when you KNOW (through painful analysis) that you have the best of it, you will come out ahead of the calling stations. It may not be pretty, but that's the table you chose to sit down at, so grind it out and come out a winner!

Worth the bump - CMAR's OP here should be mandatory reading imo.

Just wanted to add - if you try to bluff a calling station, the calling station is outplaying you.

The most common way in which you outplay your opponents is to fold.

Well if you folded everything you lose at, what?, 16.67bb/100 FR?
So you could be right!

FYP

Making players fold in the micros is burning money. You wan't them to call with 2nd best hands all day everyday.

IMO value betting is the single most important aspect (and probably the hardest to understand and implement well) after position at the micros.

Just don't level yourself

Playing against loose players..

I've had AA with a lot of action preflop and I pushed all in and it was like 5 of us because they all were gambling and liked their pot odds(2 or 3 just sat down including the guy that won the hand). Sure enough one person beat me with their J8o that hit 2 pair on the flop. I appreciate that there might be 400-500 in the pot pre-flop but who calls pre-flop with J8o or suited?

Only extremely loose players or is it a smart move?

I see AA and AK lose in live cash games with a full table, A LOT.

Chasing in general?!
I have a friend who said you should never chase and try to win the pot on the flop. He has a point because the turn and the river more often than not it seems changes who actually wins the hand. It's amazing that I have KJ heads up vs Q10 and he hits a 10 on the turn and I hit a J on the river.. but that's poker. The only sure thing is when you have the nuts ..that can't be beat.

Should pocket pairs be slowplayed or not?
I have learned that it's not worth it to slowplay pairs of say 88 or 99 and higher .. especially if it looks like there is going to be a ton of players.
Most times people are going to hit a hand to beat you and most don't get away from the 9 out flush draw if they have that A in their hand.

In general, the biggest hands I've won in cash games have come from not so amazing starting hands: 10-8o, K-7o, K-4o, etc.

I'm always amazed when it's 3 or 4 and I fold because people are placing decent bets (and I have maybe a draw or low pair) and then at the river.. they are all ashamed like they have garbage and I'm a little in shock.

I feel like maybe too often we give players credits for having hands they don't (and vice versa) but it's tough to figure out. One guy beat me on the turn with pairing his K and I had top pair with pairing my 8 on the flop with an A out there, I kept betting and maybe I should have bet more but he kept calling and by the end, he was convinced I had an A in my hand but didn't.
Most people just assume they are beat?

I once flopped trips but an A was out there and I was thinking about making a big bet, maybe go ALL IN but someone did it first. I couldn't figure out if he had just paired his A or he made a set of Aces to beat my set of 10s. I spent a long time before folding and felt stupid but people making All-in or hundreds of dollar bets for top pair .. Aces or Kings seems like an overbet to me.

Another guy had QJ and I had Q10 heads up and the flop came Q Q J and as he bet.. I say "You have QJ? No way, you do.." outloud and I couldn't get away from the hand but I was right. The situation was reversed and I slowplayed a nut straight to get him to go all-in on the river and he said that outloud but couldn't believe that I'd have it. I'm always thinking about those types of players but most of the time people don't hit but act like they do.

How do people decide to bet $10 a round with QQ and no overcards on the board giving someone with a pair, a chance to maybe beat them with a set or straight or something vs. betting bigger with them maybe folding?

At the end of the day, "Don't fold the winning hand" I guess.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the fundamentals. I'd recommend picking up some beginner Holdem books and learn about starting hands and ranges, as well as the "GAP Concept". There's a million things I could point out as flawed thinking in your post, but honestly, we all have to start somewhere. You're here on this forum, so you obviously care about learning and improving your game. I'd start there.

Was nothing I said accurate?

I know all the top starting hands and know about how tight or loose player starting hand ranges would be based on watching them play. I know the GAP concept about having a better hand than your opponent to call a raise. Following "basic poker rules" at times can be like following basic "blackjack rules" and not work out for you. Of course in poker unlike BJ, your opponent can figure out you are playing by certain basics and take advantage.

The earlier your position, the stronger your Starting Hand should be
The later your position (depending upon betting/raising situation in front of you, the weaker your hand can be (Danny Neg. tries to steal blinds almost every time with almost any hand).

Let me ask you this and yes there is a lot I don't know about playing LIVE (i've spent many hours online) but have been playing live more..

Under any circumstances, do you EVER show your hand or a card LIVE if you don't have to? People might do it to show they had the goods or that they were bluffing so they can trap when they do the opposite the next time. I'd say mostly you don't.

Most hands are won or loss on Betting .. correct me if I'm wrong.
If people don't bet, then it is purely cards and even if they do, it could still be cards.
It'd be nice if you could read a hand based on a bet but it's tricky to do..
I've seen people go All-in or bet $300 on top pair which sounds good but they do it with
a lot of players in the hand who could be holding 2 pair, trips, or a really good draw or top pair as well.

A large bet post flop on any street could mean they hit or they have AK or AJ and are playing it like it's a monster making you think you're medium or low pair is garbage when it's a winner (potentially) OR they could just be flat out bluffing with 72 or 65 and nothing. Sure a big part of it is watching what they do play and how they bet when they have certain hands, what's on the flop/turn/river. It does seem to hold out that if people are betting they have mostly crap and if they are checking or betting small they have something usually.

I saw a kid who turned out to be loose and a little bit of a bluffer but he switched tables pull this early move (early as in I had just got to the table almost) in which we were mostly checking and maybe there was one bet in there so the pot was under $30 total and either on the turn or the river, he bet $75. I thought that was a crazy bet and despite having a card to give me 2 pairs JJ3 on board and I had a 3 in my hand with a flush possible out there... I wasn't calling that because he could have had anything. He could have had 44 and beat me for all I know. Do all pocket pairs besides 22 make bets even if they have only that pair? Sure it depends on the player but I'm trying to get inside minds and figure it out. If I call his $75, I was going to be committed to the pot and he was definitely going to lose b/c he had 65 so why did he try a move like that.. just to try it. He said something like "I can't believe that worked" and flipped over his 65 but I don't think I showed what I had but maybe he could tell I would've beat him. If I had a J or a flush, he was finished cause I would've called but I guess by my checking he figured I had zip. It was only my 3rd or 4th hand, he didn't know me at all.. I didn't even consider he was bluffing b/c the bet made no sense at all. Any random big bet from someone especially when it's more than what is in the pot should get an eye raise because if he did have a hand, he'd bet smaller to get me to call him, so I should've went through that mindset .. but it screwed me three time later:

8's screwing me in 1 live play:
My pair of 8s lost to someone else with 8s and a better kicker.
My top pair of 8s lost to someone holding QQ betting like $10 a round.. so I put him on a draw or a smaller pair.
My top pair 8s lost to a pair of kings made on the turn or the river and I was betting but not enough.. the guy was very convinced I had another A and paired it. Would he have folded if I bet more? Another guy holding 33 against my AK said he would have folded had I made a large bet..

We all like to have hands that are solid when betting, calling raises, re-raising but when do you take chances with high hands that missed against 1 or 2 other players?!

Thanks for your help Reid!

I agree with everything you said up to here ...sorry I put your point together like this lol

You're getting there snapperhead. Theres a learning curve. You cant learn it all at once but it looks like youre getting there. Work on the meta game, levelling, etc. Stick around here on 2p2 and youll learn a crapload...I know I did and still am.

So is sucking out classified as 'outplaying'?

If you can consistently profit from sucking out then sure.

But to a wider view of your snark, equity is equity. We make plays based on ranges and equity. Sometimes you hit the top of their range and get it in bad. And sometimes the deck saves you. That's poker and there's no shame in it.

There are infinite situations where getting it in as a dog, even if you actually know their hand, let alone against their range, is the correct play. That's what pot odds are all about.

I am sorry to bump an older post but this thread was very helpful to me in MTT. I have played online poker for what seems like a decade now and have a high variance in my game. It may come down to fatigue in the later stages of tournaments or drinking heavily while playing or some other leak... however, I do have to say that while reading this single thread I have gone deep in every micro tournament I have played today.

I was having some trouble with calling stations before early in these tournaments but once I tagged them as such I now see them as my easy cash flow, especially when the rest of the table is playing tight. Using the strategies in this thread I built myself up to 200BB without really risking anything. It was funny to see the calling station catch against other players on the table and then I would just drain him slowly of all of his winnings.

Thank you so much for this information.

In summary the most helpful things were value betting trips or just letting the call station bluff at the pot on the turn and the river. I've also found that playing against the call station while in position is extremely powerful. Once you read their betting pattern you can tell if they hit or if they are trying to draw without even risking that many chips.

Another helpful thing I took from this thread is to value bet your hand based on it's strength. I am not saying to be obvious about what your hand is, but if you can check the flop when you miss, then check it.... don't cbet the mule with no draw or no hand, just get out of it. You spend less money this way and he's not really making money. I found the worst thing I've done is trying to bluff against a call station. Don't do it.. you're throwing away money.

It's funny seeing this - that's exactly how I used to think about it back in the limit days and it took a bit of time to re-think things (2 & 4 is much easier on the fly than the x:y method). I'm guessing it's because the x:y method was taught in the limit books while 2&4 was taught in the big bet books.

steal the money, and run RUN away!

weapons help...

"GOLD JERRY!"

That post was worth bumping a thread for the first time in 4.5 years.