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Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL

08-29-2020 , 09:12 PM

Hi guys,

as I wrote in the title, I'm a beginner and I'm really lost since I'm losing and I don't know why. First of all I will introduce myself, then I will explain my problems.


Introduction

I come from Italy (born and raised there) where I live and work in the IT sector. I started to get interested in poker in June 2020 after following a course on Udemy, but I didn't start to play right after. I thought that I first needed to train against bots to reach a minimum level of competence before starting the real game, so I made some investments, purchasing a year subscription to both Advanced Poker Training and Pokersnowie.

During these first two months, my only focus was to become the best against both APT bots and Pokersnowie: I literally dropped any other interest and studied/played poker during the time I was not working. I was playing against Pokersnowie until 2 am even during the week, sleeping around 5/6 hours. My only focus was become so perfect that Pokersnowie would have never corrected me during my training. I don't like imperfections, during my life I worked 100% to fix any little problem, so I was really precise in my training.

It was hard, but I managed to beat both APT bots and Pokersnowie over a large sample of hands. At the same time, I subscribed to two different poker training websites (among the most famous) and learned the theory (range theory, pre-flop ranges, postflop, blocker theory, etc.). After two months, I was finally beating Pokersnowie consistently in Training Mode. It is advertised as the best poker bot that beat even 200NL players, and I was beating it! Imagine how I was feeling.

Then I finally decided to subscribe on Pokerstars and start the real play. And then came the first problems. I started immediately to lose, with the same playing style that won against Snowie.


My current situation

Currently, I'm playing on Pokerstars in Italy (we have a different player pool). I started a few days ago playing 5NL, then switched quite immediately at 2NL since the player pool was too strong (or maybe I was too weak) and I was not able to win consistently.

Although I'm a LAG by nature, I'm playing a Tight Aggressive style as it is currently adviced in microstakes. My preflop ranges are those of Upswing Poker (took a while to memorize them), postflop I'm never bluffing, always folding to turn and river check/raises. Basically I'm following all the advice I read on this site, but I'm not getting any results.

The problem with TAG style is that you don't get enough money with your value hands. The only way to extract value is to learn a very precise bluffing method, in order to put the Villain in tough spots. Also, the idea of 3 Betting seems to me unprofitable. I don't know how you can make money 3 betting, since you never hit the flop and Villain always calls. You expose a lot of your stack in marginal spots when you don't have any equity and you need to bluff (then, exposing even more of you stack) to win the pot.

It seems impossible to me to win 15bb/100 at 2NL by simply playing ABC poker. They will always fold if they don't hit the flop, so the only way to extract value for your premium hands is when you have top pair/top kicker and they have middle pair (basically, when they call you with worse hands): also in these cases, they usually fold when you double barrel.

But how about when you don't hit the flop? I lost a lot of 3-bet pots even with premium hands (AK, AQ as the original raiser) because I didn't hit the flop. By following the advices (never bluff) I should have checked the flop, but without any equity I could not call every subsequent villain's flop bet.

Also, I see that player check/raise pretty aggressively at 2NL, so fold to every raise is -EV. They bluff very often, especially on monotone or wet boards in turn and river, putting you in a tough spot when you have double pair or set. You will call (is not optimal to fold since it is exploitable) and you will lose.

It is also very common to check until the river with the nuts. I saw players check flop and turn with flushes, and then calling my river bet. Also, I lost a lot of pots in horrible situations (set vs. flush, full house vs. stronger full house), where I shoved and they called me with best hands.


I think I'm missing something. Maybe I'm not playing TAG, maybe I'm doing some silly errors. But I'm playing in the same way I was playing against Pokersnowie and I'm losing. I invested a lot of money on products that should have worked, but that did not meet my expectations. It's just very disappointing that after all my hard work and dedication I didn't accomplish anything. Maybe I'm just not good for this game and I don't have enough talent.

But I'm sure there is something wrong with the way I play and I want to understand what is it before quitting. You say that even grandmas can learn 2NL in two hours: I have a lot of respect for grandmas, but I think I could play better than them even with my lack of skills


My questions

I'm asking you some things:

(1) Can you give me a precise and effective method to improve? What courses did you follow? Was it a waste of time to subscribe to online training courses and subscribing to Snowie?

(2) What are the exact questions that I should ask myself when reviewing my hands?

(3) During my typical 2NL Zoom session, I start to win around 20/40 bb, then I get stacked on a cooler (I have a set and lose to a straight, etc.). I lost a lot (sometimes even 200bb) and in the following two/three hours of session I only play to recover from my loss. This happens every single time. How to reduce this type of situations?

I don't have problem with tilt or bankroll management. I always lost my hands with a smile (there are more important things in life than poker) so problems are not related to tilt. Most likely I cannot play.

Thank you in advance Sorry for the long post (and for my bad english) , but I'm quite lost and don't know what to do. I can post my hands if this could help (I use PokerTracker). Any help will be really appreciated!

Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-30-2020 , 03:09 AM
Learn to walk before you try to run, the concept of using something like PokerSnowie when you can't beat 2NL is ridiculous. Analyse your own play, fix leaks, analyse what your opponents are doing that's exploitable, then exploit it
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-30-2020 , 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToledoKid93

I'm a beginner and I'm really lost since I'm losing and I don't know why.

The reason is because you aren't very good. I only vaguely skimmed what you wrote, but the "can't make money 3betting" stuff shows how bad at the game you are right now.

You need to study, study, study, and post hands that gave you trouble here or preferably in the micro/low limit section to receive advice and guidance on what mistakes you made in a given hand.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-30-2020 , 07:21 AM
A fellow paisà, nice.

You definitely jumped the gun my friend, PokerSnowie most likely filled your head with a lot of bad ideas.
It's definitely not a software I would advise to a complete beginner, at least not before he started to understand what's going on in real money tables; same goes for solvers (which will be the way to go in the future, keep that in mind).

Stuff like never bluffing (?), 3betting doesn't make money (???), that thing about turn check/raises (?), you're going way too fast way to soon taking assumptions.

Start posting hands that confuse you on the uNL section and read every other thread there, get a grip on the average thinking process, keep studying, at this point every book/article/video/whatever will be fine.
You'll soon be able to discern good informations from crap, a fundamental feature in the poker world.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-30-2020 , 08:14 AM
Welcome and gl...

Do you use a tracker software?
Post states and hand histories...
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-30-2020 , 12:52 PM
OP. Google Blackrain79 and check out his website. His book Crushing the Microstakes is specifically targeted at 2nl, 5nl. Although it's not a new book it's still relevant to today's games imo. And don't play zoom, play regular tables.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-30-2020 , 09:46 PM
I don't know how long you have been playing for real money, but it doesn't sound like it has been a long time. As much as you think you should be crushing, it just isn't that easy. I don't think anyone who has played online in the past few years would think that you could teach anyone (including grandmas) to win at 2NL in just a few hours.

This is one of the reasons to start at the lowest stakes - so you aren't risking much, and can learn for a very reasonable amount of money. If you start out crushing it, great, but don't expect it.

As for apologizing for your English, there is no need. Your English is much better than the vast majority of people who were born in the US (I don't know about England, but probably true for the UK, too). Good luck, and don't give up.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-31-2020 , 11:21 AM
Welcome and hopefully you can get a lot of useful information from this site. Use the search box to find topics that you have questions on.

All the posts so far have 'your' best interest at heart. So read them and act as your schedule allows.

Poker does take study. There are A LOT of times in poker where you did make the 'correct' play and still lost. You need to be able to recognize those spots and keep playing 'the right way' as it's the best for long term results. You need to know if you are running good or playing good .. or both .. or neither ... and it takes time away from the game in order to trust what you're doing in the game.

There are some very good (and blunt) online Players here (not me). If you post some hands and don't resist everything they have to say they will be a very valuable source to help you get on a more consistent path for poker. GL
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-31-2020 , 12:23 PM
Check out 'the grinder's manual' by peter clark, highly recommended
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-31-2020 , 01:43 PM
You STARTED TO GET INTERESTED in june. It is august and you are complaining already..

Jumping into the nl2 or even nl5 right away is ev-, that's for sure..

My input to this thread:
1• Get some Preflop charts
2• Review, review, review, review.
3• Think by yourself, don't go on autopilot by trying to apply things you learned somewhere else.
4• Read review threads, even comment with your opinion, don't be shy if you get bullied, there are a lot of trolls here.
5• Also review your hands and ask for second opinion.

Last edited by Balconeri; 08-31-2020 at 01:44 PM. Reason: shitty format
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
08-31-2020 , 05:56 PM
It's fine to start at 2NL, even a losing player should be able to afford the outlay.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-01-2020 , 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WereBeer
It's fine to start at 2NL, even a losing player should be able to afford the outlay.
@Paisting
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-01-2020 , 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iblis
@Paisting
Was literally going to say "unless they are Paisting" and then there's a whole backstory that OP doesn't need.

OP starting at 2nl is fine unless you have continual monkey tilt sessions, which it sounds like you don't.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-02-2020 , 04:57 AM
one thing I'd like to add is the fact that "can't even win at nl2" narrative is not very useful. Over 90% of nl2 players are losing there and no, it is not very simple to win even at the lowest stakes. Becoming a winning poker player is quite an achievement, one that places you at roughly top 10% of all players (depending on how you define a "player").

So, yeah, you should not look at winning at nl2 as some default, it is still an achievment that you need to work for.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-02-2020 , 10:34 PM
Got to beat the rake at 2NL as well.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-04-2020 , 09:28 PM
Same thing with me to be honest, NL2 zoom stars.

Full ring is crazy, average table has 8 other players and I am not kidding 8/4, 9/6, 10/3 stats all over the place. If you have two guys with higher vpip than 20 thats a rare thing and it is maybe a very lag player with 25/23 with lot of 3 bets etc.

Icredible nit fest nl 2 zoom 9 man tables.


Now NL2 zoom 6 max is different, loads of players, but incredible amount of bad beats, its like the amount of times your KK faces AA is just pure nonsense. Every session I have KK vs AA and I usually have 4-5 of KK's per session. That is unreal.

On general play, I struggle too, my result is 1.5bb/100 onver a large sample. (60K hands)

stat wise I try very tight, 16/14, nd it does not work, play TAg, play simple ABC, valuebet your strong hands, fold top pair when you are raised, steal a lot etc.
does not ring much success.

I valuebet a lot and face incredible amount times below situation:
AK, 3 bb pre, 1 guy calls
flop A 3 7
1 cbet, he calls, assume 3/4 pot size bets
turn 3
same cbet he calls
river 4
agains cbet and he calls or raises the rest which is usually not too much, hard to fold at that point

and he shows up a random 3X, or A3, or A7, A4,77, this happen so often I think I take them to valuetown and I am behind all the way or just getting outrivered...

same thing QQ, preflop 3bb, I bet all streets on a dry 9725J board and he calls all the way with KK(!), 97o, 9J,22,95,68 etc., I feel ike I lose so much on these hands

NL2 is hard noo matter what people say, they 3bet quite a lot
again a leak for me to play against 3 bets, if I fold every mediocre hand (mostly from steal JT, small pckets, Ax, Kxs, suited connectors) for 3 bets thats not a good play imo
if I call I really need to hit flop to make them fold the hand as them being the preflop aggressor but how often do you really hit a good flop on these hands, 1 of 10, 1 of 8 times usually, and 90% of times you face a cbet 50-70% of times

dont get me started on preflop all ins, I am 10 buyins under EV just from pre all ins, and I really tight with preflop all ins

3betting more is also an issue, you just get called and you face awkward spots with weaker hands if you start 3 betting weaker hands than AA,KK, QQ, AK
AJs, on button, 20/17 guy open 3 bb, I 3bet him to 10bb, he calls

flop 3 4 9

he checks, I try to take down the pot 60% pot bet
he raises or calls, thats it i am ****ed, turn 4 he checks
I give up at this point he has either 9x, he has a pocket he wont fold or AK,AQ he wont fold (or a draw that will hit)

again I lose so much on these spots, like everytime I dont hit the flop after I 3bet, sometimes I try a second barrel but gets called or even raised and it is just burning money
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-05-2020 , 01:18 PM
There are still a lot of bad players at nl2 and it doesn't take much to beat them+the rake.

My personal approach worked which is:

only play PPs, don't coldcall 3bets, jam KK+ no matter the previous action.
If there are aggressive players at the table you can l/rai KK+, but don't get in love with your overpair if it's a limped pot.

Even with always cashing out while allin I managed to get enough money to begin in nl5 where I don't have to play in such a ridiculous way.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-06-2020 , 07:12 PM
Thank you all for your advice. I think I'm starting to better understand the dynamics of the game. It will be a long journey but I'm ready to start.

I bought Crushing the Microstakes from Blackrain79 and I'm studying it, I will also take a look to the Grinder's Manual. I'm also starting to diversify my game according to the players I'm facing, trying to be more exploitative.


This week I played around 15,000 hands, I'm actually breaking even (0.35bb/100) . I think I'm steadily making some progress.

My stats are the following:

VPIP: 18.85%
PFR: 13.95%
3Bet PF: 4.60%
Call PF 3Bet: 10.94%
4Bet: 3.93%
WTSD: 25%
WSD: 55.35%


I will post some hands on the Microstakes section in the following weeks and I'll keep you updated.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-07-2020 , 08:54 AM
Nice one. Keep working at it. NL2 is far from being unbeatable even if it currently doesn't seem so to you right now. I would suggest playing on some normal table for a bit. It will feel slow but you can observe what the better players are doing and copy them while also observing the errors of the bad players. Zoom is a good format but only once you have acquired good fundamentals imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToledoKid93
Call PF 3Bet: 10.94%
It's too low but if you are using PT4, that's the wrong stat. Use "Call PF 3Bet After Raise" instead.

Good luck
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-07-2020 , 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe6pack
OP. Google Blackrain79 and check out his website. His book Crushing the Microstakes is specifically targeted at 2nl, 5nl. Although it's not a new book it's still relevant to today's games imo. And don't play zoom, play regular tables.
I agree about the zoom 100%
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-11-2020 , 02:58 AM
Just implement 25% of desent poker book + at least some kind of desent preflopp plan and you should be able to crash 2nlz even rake is too much crazy.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote
09-12-2020 , 01:36 PM
Observe your game, analyze it and write down the things. Study your opponents, first thing don't hurry up. Learn from the basic, go step by step.
Poker Noob cannot win at 2NL Quote

      
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