Overplayed AK - Beginning Poker Questions

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Overplayed AK

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04-09-2012 , 11:36 PM

elektrik23

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 371

villain is 16/7 aggression 42

I figured he had something along Qs or Js. The strong bet ppre usually represents these hands trying to protect. I did not reraise because i did not want to get in a preflop war without seeing the flop. After the check on the flop its obvious i have him.
Merge - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $6.06
Hero (UTG): $4.36
UTG+1: $6.14
MP: $4.00
MP+1: $4.25
CO: $5.12
BTN: $7.93
SB: $4.10

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero has K

Hero raises to $0.16, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.40, fold, Hero calls $0.24

Flop: ($0.84, 2 players) K

SB checks, Hero bets $0.56, SB raises to $2.52, Hero raises to $3.96 and is all-in, SB calls $1.18 and is all-in

Turn: ($8.24, 2 players) Q

River: ($8.24, 2 players) Q

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04-10-2012 , 01:33 AM

Leroy_Jenkins45

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,521

I would fold to his flop raise there . you played it fine up until then imo . you say he has a 3 bet range of only qq and jj ? he also 3 bets aa and kk then right ? his overbet raise is not qq or jj with that k on the flop . Its a sucky spot , but its a fold . The ONLY hand your beating here is a badly played kq , or a badly played qj , but we took those out of his range by his preflop 3 bet right ? clear fold .

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04-10-2012 , 03:57 AM

Combat Waitress

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,789

i might even fold pre. you're behind his range. it's one of those spots where you're not sure what you're hoping for. you're probably good if you catch an A but you won't get any action. if you catch a K you have to be very careful. you have position, if that counts for anything, and vs a range this narrow, not really

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04-10-2012 , 05:07 AM

lowanizer

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 758

against this guy, fold pre. Also fold to his raise on flop (I really doubt you are ever ahead when he does this).

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04-10-2012 , 06:18 AM

Leroy_Jenkins45

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,521

I would fold pre if we were oop , but were not , so I call there .

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04-10-2012 , 07:16 AM

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

Im shocked that you guys want to fold pre. Im 4betting him to ~ $1.50 and calling his shove. His range *must* include AK, AQ and pairs lower than KK so we are fine. Im interested to know how many hands we have on him though to be sure. if it's like 10 hands, im all in pre, if its over 10000 hands, I might be more reticent.

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04-10-2012 , 07:34 AM

lowanizer

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 758

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

4betting him to ~ $1.50 and calling his shove. His range *must* include AK, AQ and pairs lower than KK so we are fine.

He is not stacking off with AQ, so if you 4bet and call his shove you are flipping against QQ or JJ (at the very best).

AK still dominates AQ and AJ, so flatting IP is indeed pretty ok.

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04-10-2012 , 07:53 AM

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

why is AK such a mystery hand? totally eludes me. I just got to the point where I understand it is correct to always get in pre - now Im being told (persuasively) that it isnt. FML!

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04-10-2012 , 07:54 AM

lowanizer

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 758

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

why is AK such a mystery hand? totally eludes me. I just got to the point where I understand it is correct to always get in pre - now Im being told (persuasively) that it isnt. FML!

I feel the same.

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04-10-2012 , 08:03 AM

#10

zumby

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 4,277

If only someone would hurry up and invent EV calcs so we could solve this impossible conundrum.

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04-10-2012 , 08:36 AM

#11

Combat Waitress

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,789

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

why is AK such a mystery hand? totally eludes me. I just got to the point where I understand it is correct to always get in pre - now Im being told (persuasively) that it isnt. FML!

maybe for 6max. this is full ring and villain 3bet from the blind vs UTG raiser.

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04-10-2012 , 10:12 AM

#12

elektrik23

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 371

It just seems too passive to fold to his raise pre(how different would he play with queens?). I agree shoving was a bad idea, yea he could have Q's or J's but also A's ,K's or even 10's.

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04-10-2012 , 10:40 AM

#13

Combat Waitress

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,789

he may or may not 3bet QQ here. but if QQ is the worst hand in his range you should fold. if his range is wider you should call.

it's insufficient reason to call just because you think your hand is too good to fold (right now), because if you're going to flop TPTK then can't figure out a hand you're beating and nit it up for the rest of the hand, then you might as well have folded pre. if you go head and stack off, then you'll eventually find out what his range is which will either confirm or deny your original prediction, but at least your line is consistent.

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04-10-2012 , 12:16 PM

#14

ArtySmokes

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 6,999

Villain has TAG/nit stats and is probably positionally aware. He's 3-betting your UTG raise. He can beat AK. Fold to the 3-bet.

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04-10-2012 , 12:35 PM

#15

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

how many hands do we have on villain?

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04-10-2012 , 12:43 PM

#16

lowanizer

adept

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 758

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

how many hands do we have on villain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtySmokes

Villain has TAG/nit stats and is probably positionally aware.

Good points. But I don't think we can be sure he knows about position (after all he has twice as much vpip as pfr). If we have enough hands I'd look at his Attempt to Steal% and see if it is much higher than his PFR.

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04-10-2012 , 12:56 PM

#17

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

against an unknown we should be 4bet getting it in with AKo pre 100BB deep. When you flop TPTK, get it in there and then while you are ahead or maybe chopping with another AK

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04-10-2012 , 01:59 PM

#18

elektrik23

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 371

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

how many hands do we have on villain?

150 or so

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04-10-2012 , 02:13 PM

#19

Leroy_Jenkins45

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by zumby

If only someone would hurry up and invent EV calcs so we could solve this impossible conundrum.

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04-10-2012 , 02:16 PM

#20

Leroy_Jenkins45

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

against an unknown we should be 4bet getting it in with AKo pre 100BB deep. When you flop TPTK, get it in there and then while you are ahead or maybe chopping with another AK

This is just wrong . If your villian is only 3 betting qq+ , your screwed . And whoever said this villian had tag stats , thats just lol 16/7 is getting fishy . And extremely unlikely to be positionally aware .

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04-10-2012 , 02:28 PM

#21

chad0x001

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 8,558

against an unknown you are presuming that they only 3 bet QQ? Maybe thats where m going wrong.

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04-10-2012 , 02:34 PM

#22

wtfpwnage

banned

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 260

I think you played it well

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04-10-2012 , 03:03 PM

#23

Leroy_Jenkins45

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,521

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

against an unknown you are presuming that they only 3 bet QQ? Maybe thats where m going wrong.

Op said qq .. Also , merge plays alot tougher than any other site really .

Against an unknown , I would assume something like aq+ and jj+ , but if we 4 bet , it would contort his range to have us crushed if he continues .Not that were not crushed by his range already , but ip we can still play it profitably imo . You are then turning AK into a bluff , when it has value if you play it right .

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04-11-2012 , 02:45 AM

#24

Combat Waitress

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,789

Quote:

Originally Posted by chad0x00

against an unknown you are presuming that they only 3 bet QQ? Maybe thats where m going wrong.

i'd assume this until shown otherwise. 3betting any worse is pretty suboptimal here

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