Opinions: Playing pocket KK's, with Ace on flop. - Page 4 - Beginning Poker Questions

Great thread, I was on Papi's side to begin with but I totally shifted. I totally froze when an Ace flopped.
Thanks Grunch/Lego/CMAR, your replies helped a lot. Especially the WA/WB situation we're in, and how to manoeuvre ourselves in these situations.

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12-09-2008 , 11:29 PM

#78

smbruin22

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,306

hey good thread!!! probably the most common difficult situation i face. i see both sides.

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12-10-2008 , 05:28 AM

#79

Malfunction

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,719

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cruzerthebruzer

CTB

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12-10-2008 , 06:52 AM

#80

johnnytt

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4,351

What do you do if board has flush draw on it? or is like A-8-7? C bet?

What if we have TT-QQ and not KK? C-bet?

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12-10-2008 , 10:13 AM

#81

Grunch

Bounty Hunter

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 11,705

The more coordinated the board (A87hh is fairly coordinated), the more you should bet.

The more margainal your hand, the more you should bet.

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12-18-2008 , 12:30 AM

#82

Cruzerthebruzer

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 5,622

Tooo the anthology!

Edit: Just realized I contributed almost nothing to this thread.

Last edited by Cruzerthebruzer; 12-18-2008 at 12:36 AM.

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12-19-2008 , 06:38 AM

#83

Bonecrusher Smith

enthusiast

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunch

It doesn't change the cards he actually holds, but it widens his range. Here's a couple of examples.

Let's say that before the flop we estimate his range to be Ax, 22+ any suited connector and any 2 cards T and higher. Some hands are less likely because he didn't reraise (for example KK or AK) but not impossible.

How does this range change when we bet the flop and he calls? Obviously he is folding hands that have no chance like suited connectors. Many players will also fold hands that AK now beats, like 55-JJ except of course those hands that hit the jackpot. These are the hands we don't want to fold. If we can give them reason to believe that we don't have AK and their 88 might still be good, they can pay us off. By betting the flop we are encouraging these hands to fold. In other words, by betting the flop we're helping worse hands to play perfectly against us.

If we check the flop we're helping that same range of hands to make a mistake. Once we check the flop his range on the turn is exactly what it was before the flop, only now he is more likely to think our range doesn't include AK. Against the marginal hands like 88, 76, etc we can often get 2 streets of value by betting both the turn & river. If he bests, we obviously call both the turn and usually the river.

This is superbly well explained. Thank you.

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01-18-2010 , 09:54 PM

#84

sumer32

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizzeedizzee

Lots of missing information. Is it tourney or cash? What stakes or blind level? What are stack sizes? Were there other callers? Have you been playing loose/tight, and what about the caller?

In general though, realistically only 2 types of hands beat you here - a set or a paired ace. When you consider all the hands that could've called you, it is quite possible you're ahead, even though the natural assumption when you see the dreaded ace is that you got 3 outed. A common beginner mistake is to assume that flops hit your opponents, when the actual percentages might suggest otherwise.

I agree that you should bet the flop, especially given the cards and for the simple reason that you surely lose if you don't and the % of your stack that you risk by betting it is likely small. With a board that has no real straight or flush possibilities, a call should suggest you've been outflopped and it's time to just check/fold other streets. But then again, you might know more based on the other factors I noted above. For example, you might be against an opponent who, even if he has an ace, could be the type who'd worry that he's outkicked or that you have a set. It's risky and perhaps not a +EV play to keep marching ahead in that situation, but then again, this is where good read on players and spots could help provide added data that could tilt the scales in your favor and win you a pot that you'd otherwise lose.

So much knowledge! you must be a winning player , speaking long term.
Reading a reply like that totally reinforces my abelief that the luck factor is a
totally short term thing, you would do well coaching or writing poker articles, if you dont allready.
I'm curious to know your screen name , if for anything to stay clear of you in games, (lol nah) just to look you up and see that I'm not wrong.
Thanks for that reply. You have settled my fears of playing KK with an A flop
just with the line -
>> A common beginner mistake is to assume that flops hit your opponents, when the actual percentages might suggest otherwise.

This I have concluded was the crux of my fears.
Thanks!

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