yea i meant were u the guy in the hand lol?

Nope. Why that question.

i dunno, you just sound like you might be trying to talk about yourself in 3rd person. ah well. yea, i do like your point. and yea, i should have just check folded turn

Oh, i was just speaking about how i feel on that hand. I feel his hand range would be in the upper range only when he 4bets, unless he decides to get tricky.

[QUOTE=jackwilcox;11318517] he knows about this site, and knows i play higher - we have been chatting at the table quite a bit, and i expect to get respect basically (we started chatting essentially because i berated him for his play in hand 2)

QUOTE]

This is usually a bad idea on live poker, does anything change on the interwebz? or is it still a bad idea? I don't play 400NL(online) maybe it's common practice on the higher limits.

I think since he know jack plays on the site it pretty much doesn't change too much as long as they don't start discussing strategy.

Phil Ivey's tip - the only one

"Calculating the odds can certainly help you decide whether you're making a smart move, but it doesn't take into account who you're playing against. There are many times when you can do all of the math you want and your decision still comes down to intangibles and a feeling about your opponent or the situation you're facing. Does this guy have a hand? Can I push him off the pot? Am I getting myself into trouble here? Even if the odds say you should play, your gut may be telling you something else, and that's something you can only develop by playing."

+1

Question: What do you do when you go to $0 at(for example) 2 tables when you're multitabling? Do you quit the tables and search for other tables? Or stop your session?

I'm sure he's never getting to 0

Auto reload FTW!!

almost everyone has auto rebuy on, so unless they make a bad decison or get sucked out on they wont be hitting zero.

i know i change tables when i dont feel like im better than 1-3 people at the table or i hit my stoploss for the day.

no. i dont type anything in chat usually except the occasional 'lol' when i suck out on something and think it might tilt them.

he just typed in chat that he 'knew' i had AK and wish he had 33 so he could call. i got talking to him about how his 4bet sizing was pretty horrific and that i dont usualy play 25nl so it didnt really matter if he wanted to discuss stuff etc. i also went on to tell him that my range in this spot is not polarized to QQ+ or AK and that his 4bet sizing didnt display strength but actually looked weak.

yea. this is essentially the strategy of cash game poker in a nutshell. i never seen this quote before but i think it should be in the beginners FAQ for 'how do you win at cash games'

i have auto reload on. go into options, then you will see an option to auto-reload in ring games. if i lose money on a table it usually means theres a couple of big stacks, so if anything i am more inclined to stay and try to win it back. unless i know they are really good players, in which case i would leave before i got to zero because i would think "omg how am i going to beat these"

Jack can you go into detail about why the 4bet was bad? I've been following this thread and I'm not sure I recall you discussing 4bet sizing.

I only ever 4bet pf with a polarized range of QQ+ or if I have pretty much the nuts post so that's the extent of my 4bet play.

ill be lurkin this thread gl bro

4-betting pre flop involves a bit of maths but just bear with it...

ok, so someone requested i write a little bit about 4-betting. its something i do a lot actually in the because there is a lot of regs who adjust to your blind stealing by 3betting from the blinds... if you want to be able to not get run over, then you need to adjust to this. there are 2 ways of adjusting to persistant 3bettors; flatting the 3bets, and playing post flop, or 4betting.

flatting 3bets and playing post flop is such a complex subject, and also something i suck at in general, so im not going to talk about that.

however, 4betting is a pretty simple concept. its something i do with JJ+ and AK for value generally, so therefore to become a little more deceptive and unreadable, i need to do it with bluffs occasionally too...

so heres the example hand:

its a 10NL game, folded to me, and i make it 30c on the button. sb folds and bb raises to $1. we are both full stacked.

now whats his range for 3betting?? most people 3bet for value (i.e. will shove over a 4bet) with JJ+ and AK in this situation. they will also realise they need to 3bet light sometimes, so they throw in some small pairs which can occasionally flop sets, some hands like AJs which still have ok equity when called, and suited connectors...

[as you move up, you will find good players are a bit more balanced than this and 3bet 99+ and AQ for value too, but i will assume a polarized range for the example]

the value hands of TT+ and AK account for 3% of the starting hands in NL hold'em. if you have an ace, then because of card removal, there is less combinations of AK and AA, so now that range only represents 2.5% of hands.

so lets assume someone has a 3bet% of 8 (not uncommon as you move up at all especially if u have hold'em manager and look at 3bet% from the blinds vs steal, in fact 8% is pretty average), and in this instance we do not have an ace.

therefore 37.5% of the time (3/8) they actually have a hand, and 62.5% of the time (5/8) they have air/ semi-bluffs that cant call a 4bet.

so lets assume we 4bet bluff to $2.2, making it 2.2x his 3bet size.

villain cant really flat with his connectors etc so he has to fold those and can only continue with his value hands.

the pot is (.3+.05+1) $1.35, and we risk $1.90 with a 4bet. so we need him to fold roughly 1.9/3.25 = .58 or 58% of the time (i cant really explain the math but just trust me lol!)
in a vacuum (not taking player/ game dynamics into account) this will be immediately successful since he will be folding 62.5% of the time based on his pre flop range.

consider instead if we 4bet to $3, making it 3x his 3bet size.

now we are risking $2.7 to win the same $1.35, however we need 2.7/ 4.05 = 0.66 or 66% folds. assuming the range outlined before, he only folds 62.5% of the time so this play is unprofitable.

as you can see, without taking anything into account, raising to $2.20 against this player when he 3bets is automatically profitable.

of course, in reality you need to take game dynamics into account. if you have been winning a lot of pots without showdown lately, or 3/4betting a lot because you actually had a hand... then dont try 4bet bluffing as you are less likely to get credit.

if you have been relatively quiet, and the guy who 3bets you has been a bit crazy lately with lots of monkey 3betting etc, then go ahead and 4bet him. if he shoves you can fold, it doesnt matter. the play was correct mathmatically, you just got unlucky that he happened to have a hand this time.

this is quite a high variance play, and is expensive when it goes wrong, but certainly its very profitable when used correctly and taking down a $1.35 pot at nl10 is like 6.5ptbb - very much worth picking up! if you 4 table and do this once an hour on only 1 of the tables, you will be adding roughly 2ptbb/100 to your winrate

very good post Jack, two problems some peoples ranges at 10nl are purely value 3bets and the last part assumes they fold every time we 4 bet which is obviously not the case. 4bet is always thin unless you pick the right spot .

HU4Rollz alrdy bitchi and jack you guys need to just get it over with

i used NL10 purely because its easier to demonstrate raise sizes. obviously i realise that at NL10 you dont have many good 3bettors, and i stated that people will find it more common as they move up

also, if in position you can cbet like just under half pot if they flat with relative success, since people are primarily playing fit or fold in a 4bet pot unless they are a maniac.

and i have yet encounter any reg-ish type player who 5bet bluff shoves...

its not thin if you do it based on gameflow and pick your spots carefully

Good post on 4betting. Great actually.

You seem to be in quite the mood to recontribute to 2+2 and a good writer, why not a book?

because i think thats kind of arrogant and a bit egomaniacal. im not particularly a great player or anything, im literally just passing on stuff i have heard from others through out these forums/ from card runners vids etc. i just love poker, and writing the posts in here dont take me long, but obviously are quite informative to a lot of people which is cool by me

I think i agree with this, a lot of people only 3bet for value, I suppose that's something to note for each player if you find out.

That is true, especially at lower stakes, BUT their value range is so wide that we can crush them by widening our stack off range, also.

I've 4bet like, almost never at 25NL. I just don't think it's ever profitable unless you've got enough info on villain that they don't flat 4bets and they 3bet/fold a decent amount. Even then it's barely profitable, and not worth the risk, and I just cbf to get a huge amount of notes at uNL to do that when so many other things are more profitable. 4betting the right opponent is somewhat +EV.... but 4betting the wrong opponent is a lot more -EV.

imho.

The people who only 3bet for value are usually pretty easy to identify since they will 3bet you less (like < 3%) than the light 3bettors who you will notice 3betting your LP opens more frequently than they would if they were only doing it for value. Their 3betting frequencies will positively indicate whether a light 4bet is in order the majority of the time.

Secondly, most reggish players won't flat a 4bet without a very strong hand since you are repping so much strength. It just doesn't happen often enough to be something to worry about.

as was already stated, this becomes more profitable as you move up. im assuming the majority of players are aiming to play higher, and its certainly something that you will need to encorporate at some stage. i wasnt suggesting you just start auto-4betting every time one of the blinds 3bets your button open..

Yeah the problem I have with this is especially at lower limits and against many 40/15 type players is they flat everything. The poker gets really boring cause I have to play so straight forward.