your 25NL verdict after 25k hands is..?

you need to set 2p2 so it shows 100 posts per page

i almost fell out of my seat laughing at this

still waiting to smoke that blunt with u bud

+1, Graph?

lol have played about 3k hands of 25nl... will play sum more later this week, have been pretty busy lately moving out of my uni accomodation/ staying with my gf etc.. gotta get back on track with the poker.

25nl is good though, its starting to play a bit more like actual poker rather than just seeing maniacs chasing gutshots to the river as was the case quite often at nl10

ok, how about at 10k hands at 25nl you give us a verdict, perhaps 25k hands was alittle unrealistic by now

This thread and the session I played with jackwilcox ( about 1000 hands) helped me to decrease my leaks in my game. (importance of re-stealing, etc.)

He must be very busy and will be back soon


Good Luck and Have fun at the tables!

Damn your button PFR is sick, I played a small bit at one of ur tables earlier today, you were talking to some guy with a picture of chucky from childs play.

I 3bet u twice with garbage btw, due to the tips found in this thread.

right.. i have a couple of hands i would like to share from nl25. i know i have been a bit slack lately, i put in an hour or so today so maybe another 300 hands. had a couple of cool spots. i got completely owned in one spot too which i want to share (hey i cant just show hands where everything goes perfect!)

1st hand:

villain here is somewhat a loose cannon. not a great player, but i dont know that much about him, is playing pretty loose. this is a hand more about using stack sizes to maximise value. i see a lot of people who would go ahead and pot this flop and turn, but you really dont need to.

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (SB): $45.10
BB: $9.10
UTG: $20.55
MP: $6.75
CO: $25.25
BTN: $15.45

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with A A
UTG calls $0.25, 2 folds, BTN raises to $1, Hero raises to $2.75, 2 folds, BTN calls $1.75

a smaller 3bet than i usually make because he is shorter (standard here wud b like 3.25). i dont need the pot to be that big to get his stack in by using small rope-a-dope bets post flop. i just need to keep him keen...

Flop: ($6.00) J 8 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.75, BTN calls $2.75

again with a small bet, when he gets to the flop he has like $12.75. now he has $10 and the pot is 11. i can bet like $4 then $7 and make him committed with real marginal holdings.

Turn: ($11.50) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.75, BTN raises to $9.95 all in, Hero calls $6.20

again, another small bet. i make it $3.75 instead of $4 just for psychlogical purposes that it looks cheaper. he does the work for me and decides to shove. i obviously am real happy to snap

River: ($31.40) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $31.40
Hero shows A A (a full house, Deuces full of Aces)
BTN mucks Q J
Hero wins $29.90
(Rake: $1.50)

point of this hand is bet sizing. i see a lot of people just have standard amounts they bet and raise without thinking about what can call. if i bet like $5 on this flop, then i think i fold out a lot of middling pairs/ random overcards which might float me for a smaller bet. i have 3 bets to get his stack in, flop turn and river. so by betting just under half pot i can easily achieve that. work out how to make opponents feel most committed in these situations - if you bet the right size, you can get most opponents to go one street too far before they realise they should have folded

2nd hand:

this is the same opponent who we will see in the next hand. i havent been at the table long. he seems fairly loose and is certainly trying to steal his fair share of pots.

i think its important to not be too polarized between bluffs/ monsters in these situations. people will be trying to steal your blind a lot if they are any good and will also be prepared to get it in lighter against you. 88 can be a tough hand to play post flop, a lot of the time overcards come and its hard to know where you are. 3betting gets value from some hands like AJ which you are ahead of but decide to call. it also makes the hand easier to play because you can narrow your opponents range down quite a bit.
in this situation i am usually playing for stacks vs a loose opponent.

what i will say about 4betting is the sizing/ timing. obviously hard to show timing in this instance, but villain instant 4betted me. why would he make this size? would he do it that quickly with AA or KK etc? unlikely. when someone does this its usually AK or air. i am shocked he folded, i mean he gave himself over 2:1 odds to call my shove so should be doing it with anything that he is 4betting. his 4bet sizing was truly horrific here... he doesnt need to make it anywhere near that big for me to fold out my bluffs, and just means i do have a hand i want to go all the way with he can get away cheaper

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $25.00
Hero (BB): $26.15
UTG: $9.70
MP: $37.00
CO: $24.45
BTN: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BB with 8 8
4 folds, SB raises to $0.75, Hero raises to $3, SB raises to $9.25, Hero raises to $26.15 all in, 1 fold

Final Pot: $18.50
Hero mucks 8 8
Hero wins $18.50




3rd hand:

this is a mammoth pot where i ran a huge bluff, which im not sure i love so much now but i still think is ok. villain is pretty loose but seems like he certainly is playing to win and knows what he is doing to an extent. he knows about this site, and knows i play higher - we have been chatting at the table quite a bit, and i expect to get respect basically (we started chatting essentially because i berated him for his play in hand 2)

Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $46.05
Hero (SB): $46.80
BB: $33.75
UTG: $30.40
CO: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with J K
2 folds, BTN raises to $1, Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, BTN calls $2.50

villain opens a lot off the button/ in steal position so this is standard i think. i maybe shouldnt be 3betting because we are deeper, but i still think its good and i am really nitty with flatting out of postion.

he flats my 3bet real quick. which makes me think he has an AJ/ mid pair type hand. as he wasnt considering folding and he wasnt considering 4betting (i.e. he never has garbage, and he never has QQ+ or AK)
Flop: ($7.25) 8 2 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $4.25, BTN calls $4.25

i expect to get the 40% or so of folds i need to make this a profitable play based on pot odds, i think he folds out his random overcards and probably peels one with middling pairs only to fold on later streets.
after i bet he takes a while to call, so i think its unlikely he has a draw as id expect him to call quickly with that sort of hand. so i think he is calling to 'see what i do on the turn' or... he was considering raising but decided to flat (either bluff/ float or because he actually has a huge hand)

Turn: ($15.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $9.25, BTN calls $9.25

meh, this is a pretty bad turn card to barrel in all fairness, though i dont think he has many flush draws in his range, i think he can easily have a single heart which will call another bet to try and spike a flush. he quickly calls this turn bet. at this point i put him on a hand like TT with the T of hearts, etc so i plan to shove a lot of rivers that are blanks.

i can remove a lot of the floats from his range so i dont think he has total air here. i expect him to have a lot of hands containing 1 heart, with only the very occasional monsters.

River: ($34.25) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $29.80 all in,

i think by this river his range consists of the 2 full houses available... 88 and 66 (i think he folds 22 pre. he should be folding 66 too against me really though 88 is an ok call - basically he doesnt have the odds to set mine, but that is a sepate discussion..).
his range has a lot of hands like 99, TT possibly JJ if he didnt 4bet pre. i think these hands will fold to a river shove, as it really beats only a bluff. i expect him to fold those hands at least, as i dont think he will want to go broke with a mid pair here. i also expect him to fold all his overcard hands, which have 1 heart in them.
maybe 1 or 2 flushes. mmm tbh i really dont see how he could ever have a flush here except precisely AQ/ AJ of hearts tbh. AT is a little marginal preflop. KQ is a possibility i guess, though i think he would consider raising the turn in case another heart came etc.

so yea, i think his range is like 88 and 66 for a boat, which is never folding. but that is pretty unlikely based on card combinations. 99-JJ with 1 heart, which is his most likely holding imo based on the action (i look really strong here). a couple of flushes which he wont be folding either but that isnt hugely important because i think he vey rarely has a flush. also, some air hands that include 1 heart, but which may beat me, such as AQ with 1 heart etc, though i obviously expect them to fold.

overal i think this is pretty thin. i wont tell the results though; im open to opinions... fwiw, against most players i would usually just check fold the flop... but i was in the mindset that i could barrel him off his holding as imo he has a middling pair here a lot based on his flop/ turn calls and (bad) intuition...

That 4bet sizing is just horrific, you can pretty much shove atc I think

lol.

im interested to hear your opinion on my multi-street KJ bluff.

I'm a very ABC player so can't offer really deep thoughts; don't berate the fish though!

I'm conflicted on the 3bet just due to our stack size (sort of akward with this hand), but since you play very postflop I think its fine. The range you give him preflop is way too narrow though, this deep I think he'll peel this fast with 22-TT, 45s+,46s+, Suited Aces, Suited broadways, Some off suit connectors. He may 4bet QQ/AK, but at this level, and this depth, optimal play vs a normal weaktight villain would be to flat, and I don't think he would be good enough to adjust vs someone aggressive like you. i do like your timing tell anaylisis and agree AA/KK is probally not in his range.

Flop Cbet is good, but turn bet is obv very bad, and I don't think the mandatory river shove even makes up for it. Too lazy to do the math, but practically no hands he's peeling flop are folding turn while alot of cards on the river improve his hand so its hard for you to know when to shove. I mean this is a horrible board to slowplay, so the argument I'm betting turn so I can make more money on the river shove sort of applies - however any plan that involves a loose bad player not slowplaying monsters and also folding overpairs is not going to be a profitable parlay.

i agree with what you're saying kind of. im not sure why i bet the turn tbh. well, i was planning to shove river obv and fold out a lot of what peels the turn.

essentially i need 50% fold equity on river.

including all the card removal, a range of 66 and 88, plus AQ/ AJ/ KQ of hearts for his calling hands, and only 99-JJ for his folding hands (assuming he folds those, and excluding any AQo type hands he hands with 1 heart) is basically break even. so once he maybe has a few AQo type hands that he folds due to no heart on river.. i think its profitable just extremely high variance, but yea, this is probably the toughest spot i had so far in this experiment just because i wanted to run some big bluff lol

I saw the KJ bluff at the table so my view might be biased since i know the results, but if the guy is a thinking player what are you really representing here against him? If the guy knows you are good then your line here is either a bluff or a set, you would not fire 3 streets like that for huge stacks with an overpair and you wouldnt shove pot sized with a flush on the river into a paired board.

yes i would.

i would play KK/AA and any flush exactly the same. not sure about QQ thats kinda borderline but probably still play it like this.
there is some serious nittyness/ probable leaks in your game if you wouldnt keep firing a big pair/ flush at any point in this hand.

How are you figuring out it's 40% based on pot odds? You're risking 4.25 to pick up a pot of 7.25? Or is there a more advanced fold equity calculation amongst this?

I think the turn's actually a great card to double barrel on. It completes the flush, the straight draws got there and it's going to be difficult to keep calling with air if he was just floating you on flop and seeing how you played turn. But at this point I think you really have to consider how he's played it and called you on 2 streets and not been phased by it. I don't think there's a whole lot of value in emptying the clip here as it looks like a good probability of getting called, unless he's on some missed draw or played suited connectors the river is no scare card. I'm going to guess you got looked up in this hand the way villain's played it.

Whats ment by peel?

Call when the relative value of your hand is unclear, but possibly good.

peel means to call and see another card..

eg: villain peels the flop : villain calls n see the next card

hey jack good thread ive been following this and agree with 95% of what u say,
but this hand im not sure how u played it was correct, first of all right from the start it
seemed u had the idea of bluffing this hand right the start!!! which is usally bad as u look
for holding's vilian may have that a. u beat or b. he would fold .basically u 'll find a reason which probably isin't correct. i agree with his holding pre flop range u put him
on i think 88-99-1010-jj, aq,k-q, aj-maybe an ace-10 s, but whats he putting u on here ??
a-k , a-a, k-k , q-q,j-j, i think yr range here to him is smaller than the range he is showing. right okay u bet out on the flop now he may thinks here u have trips on the 8's but prob an over pair , prob not a flush draw though , he flat calls ?? i think his flat call here puts him on 8-8,10-10, or the ace high/ king high flush draw, i think if he has 10-10, hes looking for a non over card on turn and a check from u , then he's pushing.
with 8-8 i think hes going to raise u on turn with a non ace/k turn, i think if any heart falls he will still raise to rep it. it is a heart u bet he just calls this is kind of werid he calls , he calls fast i think the 10-10 with a heart cant be as if he puts u on a-a, k-k and u have a heart this is such a weak call bye him ????a flat call here i put him on 8-8 or ace high flush , river doubles up , u push all in wow i think its a bad push. i think he puts u on a-a or k-k -q-q.here. i have no idea what u hope to represent by this shove on that board????? what are u trying to get him to fold hes snap calling here with a full house , an ace/king flush or a-a??? im not sure what he has for sure i guess 8-8 or acequeen hearts...

basically the way the math works it ends up becoming 4.25/11.5 = x, whereby x is the % of times you need villain to fold to break even. in this case it actually = 0.36 or 36%. search for fold equity equation if you want to find out how i got this figure.

turn = not a good card to double barrel on because he picks up a lot of heart draws, although yes, i mean if i had big hearts obviously ive just made a flush and overpairs are still ahead.

basically calling to see another card. its commonly used when you have a middling pair and call the opponents cbet just to see what he does on the turn, usually planning to fold to a second barrel.

i agree, i didnt play it correctly. however i wouldnt say i had the idea of bluffing from the start.
1) villain can fold to my 3bet. this needs to happen something like 75% of the time assuming no equity when called (untrue of course, if i hit a K or J i may be good), in order for my 3bet to break even.
2) my hand rates to be in good shape vs most of his calling range. if he calls with AQ i have 2 live cards, if he calls with a medium pair i have two overcards. only times im dominated is when he has AJ or KQ basically.
3) most of his flatting range misses a lot of flops. if he was set mining with a pair he is going to have to fold a lot of the time. if he has big cards he will miss most of the time. and if he has a medium pair, overcards will come out a lot of the time and he will have to make tough decisions.

as for the rest of your analysis, its pretty good. in response to what you asked about how should villain view my hand, well i expect villain to put me on a big pair/ flush by the river. im not trying to represent trips or a full house because that doesnt make sense since i 3bet pre flop. as already stated, i would play a big pair/ flush exactly the same as this hand, thats why i think my hands looks really strong

Nice one for doing this btw, just from reading this my game is definitely improving.

I appear to be floating more in the right spots now than I was 2 weeks ago, and I'm cbetting much less too.

Appreciate it.

I don't see how betting the turn would be any good. Since he opens on the button pretty lightly, his hand range would probably shift towards the lower bracket, although with the occasional times where he might show up with 99+.
However i feel that there wouldn't be many cards on the river that would be great for you and good to bluff at. (Don't berate me for my fishy comments but this is just how i feel and i believe i can improve by learning from my ''mistakes'')

lol were u villain?


i do agree. check folding is obviously the standard play. i think he folds at least some% of the time though im not sure he is folding river 50% of the time once we get there (well he should be really if my assigned range is correct, but i dont know if it is).

meh, i think its a gd hand for the thread anyway

Me? Villian? You are kidding.
Sorry if it isn't me. Just assuming since your post is right beneath mine.