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NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit

07-17-2009 , 08:37 PM
i wanna see this topic discussed in next vid, or next post

villian is 18/13/1 127 hands
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $47.10
SB: $25.00
BB: $32.95
Hero (UTG): $55.40
MP: $25.00
CO: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is UTG with K A
Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, 1 fold, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) A 7 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.25, CO raises to $4.50, SB folds, Hero folds

villian 15/13/infnt
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $6.60
UTG: $32.90
CO: $49.60
Hero (BTN): $26.25
SB: $25.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with K A
1 fold, CO raises to $1, Hero raises to $3.25, 2 folds, CO calls $2.25

Flop: ($6.85) J A T (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2.50, CO raises to $10, Hero folds

villian 15/13/2.3
Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $25.00
BB: $52.40
Hero (CO): $28.00
BTN: $26.00

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A K
Hero raises to $0.75, BTN calls $0.75, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.50) T 3 K (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.75, BTN raises to $4.75, SB folds, Hero folds


villian 22/18/5.5
Poker Stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $50.00
SB: $50.50
BB: $53.00
UTG: $69.30
Hero (MP): $50.00
CO: $53.15

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is MP with K A
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.50, 1 fold, BTN calls $1.50, 1 fold, BB calls $1

Flop: ($4.75) 4 A T (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BTN raises to $12, BB folds, Hero folds

this spot has pissd me off lately and i thought it was hpnning more often, but when goin through my pt to find them these were all the times this similar situation occured in 18000 hands. these are all good folds right?

that aside, hows the progression throught the stakes been goin? what is your winrate at nl25? whens it time for nl50?

I thought the vid was pretty solid and well done. You didnt get into too many hairy spots or borderline situations, but i guess we dont need to. Tuf to find the rare spots i guess in 1 hour 4 tabln. I thought the little piece you had on a polarized 3 bet range vs value range was a nice touch and things like these really help
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-17-2009 , 08:40 PM
Those are all bad folds, IMO. I probably call and see if they barrel the turn.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-17-2009 , 08:54 PM
Nice work jw,more of a mtt sit+go player but some good stuff in here.

Regards.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-17-2009 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cman24687
tips on playing optimally from the blinds would be nice. i leak so much from the blinds by either playing tight and defending too little or defending too much.
+1
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-17-2009 , 11:37 PM
Finally watched it, it was great. Waiting for pt 2.
If possible i'd like to see you discuss 3betting light ip vs flat-calling ip.
What hands do we 3bet light instead of flatcall (and vice versa) and why, and against which type of opponents? Of course this is quite a broad topic but if you come across some situations where you can shed some light, I would really appreciate it.
Also bottom right hand table, you folded 33 to a btnraise from the sb. Why?

Last edited by Ligic; 07-17-2009 at 11:47 PM.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligic
Finally watched it, it was great. Waiting for pt 2.
If possible i'd like to see you discuss 3betting light ip vs flat-calling ip.
What hands do we 3bet light instead of flatcall (and vice versa) and why, and against which type of opponents? Of course this is quite a broad topic but if you come across some situations where you can shed some light, I would really appreciate it.
Also bottom right hand table, you folded 33 to a btnraise from the sb. Why?
Small pairs don't have implied odds for set mining vs stealing, and you're caught in between the button and the bb, which means your call can/will be squeezed. You're pretty much 3betting or folding those hands in the SB all day vs lose players.

As far as calling vs 3betting in position, you should be calling with any hand that has "flop value" like pocket pairs or suited connectors and 3betting any hand with blockers and/or implied odds like A6o, K9s or maybe 85s (blockers add fold equity and let you pot control)
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 12:53 AM
Hmm, my standard is to flat all pairs <88 from the blinds. Maybe this is a big leak?
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 12:59 AM
Hey Jackwilcox, I'd sure love to hear you opinions on how to beat the different limits.
Did you play ABC tag poker at the lower limits or what?

Downloading video now btw.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligic
Hmm, my standard is to flat all pairs <88 from the blinds. Maybe this is a big leak?
Yes. It is.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 03:01 AM
as others said, i would like blinds covered and light 3betting as well
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 03:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligic
Hmm, my standard is to flat all pairs <88 from the blinds. Maybe this is a big leak?
From the SB, yes. From the BB, depends on post-flop play.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 04:11 AM
Just watched it, very good advice.

Where about in England are you from, if you don't mind me asking?
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 05:42 AM
hi. first post in this thread for me, but i have been following from the beginning. I think this experiment is a great idea and I have learnt a lot so far. Video is great too. Keep up the good work.

btw, are you at Reading Uni? a friend of mine just finished there, im sure you might know him if you go there.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 05:52 AM
Hey I just watched the video, really liked it. I made some comments as I watched. I question some of your plays, but I hope you don't mind, because obviously you know the game better than I do and stuff, probably, but I just wrote down whatever I thought at the time. Hopefully the discussion in generates will be helpful to others.

Quote:
99 on 76A2A

He can value bet worse, people like stabbing at dry boards, and in that situation, your hand is massively underrepped, he is taking a stab definetly.

He probably just went ZOMG YOU HAZ NOTHING I BET, and it being a multiway pot doesn't mean much to him. Just because you don't know HIS bluffing frequency doesn't mean you can't just estimate the frequency of a random 25NL donk bluffing when everyone checks down to the river to him, that's like an invitation to bet, I'm surprised you said that nobody every bluffs here. He is too much of a fish to realize that you check due to showdown value and would have cbet any K high Q high, which I assume is what you mean when you say "he can't ever be bluffing here", because I can see him bluffing here a LOT, or have a 7 or 6 and go I HAVE TOP PAIR I BET! I simply cannot see ever folding to 1 bet with 99 on AA762. We basically have the nut two pair here. He never has an ace, never has a fullhouse, and... yeah, what beats us here, actually? TT JJ?

And that "cost me nothing" part is just sort of silly. I mean, it doesn't matter what is already in the pot, yes, and it costs you 2 dollars to call, but you're good way more than 50% of the time when in fact you need to be good less than 30% of the time, so folding there is sort of horrible in an EV standpoint, but you didn't explain that at all. To me, your comments about pot odds in the end is making it more clear than ever that it is a call. Risk 2 dollars win 6.8 back. Seems like a sweet deal to me.

Basically I am very VERY surprised when you explained your play there. Maybe a fold lower variance, okay, but this is nowhere near a "clear fold" as you seem to suggest, and I honestly think you'd agree with me if you read the hand again, as I obviously have a lot of respect for your posts.

58o vs minraise 5-way pot (don't fold?)With the TT set cbet where the two players folded, I just thought I'd mention that I like a 1.8 or 1.9 bet sizing instead of 2 because we've seen that guy do crazy stuff, and basically I think a 1.8 or 1.9 looks a lot weaker than a $2 bet psychologically and could encourage them to make moves or float or peel with weak hands or whatever, and I don't think building a huge pot has much value on that board as induce semi-bluff raises and light call-downs.

You got sick called with your jacks, I mean, wow second pair.

I think cbetting for value/prot w/ AJ on 842 is okay especially vs a stack like his where you can't peel A high on the turn to any decent bet (not his min bet) Also you give him too much credit to think he will peel vs you thinking you have A high. A high isn't THAT huge a part of your range; you have loads of pockets and possible 89 78 also. I'd value/block bet river.

btw, I am making these comments on notepad as I watch, I didn't see his cards, but I really prefer a value/block bet with AJ. I don't think he'd raise a Q, I don't think he'd raise bluff, and I don't think he'd bet less than your block/value bet with a Q either (I assume you're calling a bet on the river if he bets 2/3...), so you gain almost nothing by checking since he doesn't really bluff air too much there (imo) as much as he has some random pocket pair or mid pair that will call you down but check/bet ******ed like he did, I mean, hey, it's the river, he's not folding his 6s or T8 or whatever, imho.

AQT doesn't really hit a limp/call range that hard, imo, and limping behind with pocket pairs to hit a set multiway is okay (you'e done this twice so far. I don't see anything wrong with prot/semibluff bet 55 on AQT just to take the pot, also, he's stabbing turn even with air (imo he's almost never not betting the turn with air); this is 6max 25NL, people bet when checked to, it's what they do, imo, so if you check to check fold, you're losing value, check to call is spewey because even if he bluffs a huge percentage our hand is still terrible in equity vs any 2 overs + gutshot and the 9 helps his range also, so the best choice is to bluff (with what is usually the best hand) on the flop and besides you can second barrel or check turn bet river sometimes or something. If you had something like K9s on the flop, you're cbetting surely, and yes, you have a gutshot, but that really doesn't change much does it?

You cbet because it's an AQT board and it his your range way more than his. Occasionally he has Qx Tx, but rarely Ax, making it good for double barrels, but even just cbetting, I think it is, in a vaccuum, profitable vs his range. If it's profitable to cbet K9, it's probably profitable to cbet ATC in that spot, which includes 55, and it doesn't really matter that we are bluffing with the best hand, the move is +EV so it is.

Oh yeah, you say he's never folding any part of that board... yeah that's true... but how often does he have a part of that board, seriously?

99 preflop 3bet would be cool, but I generally flat these hands without dynamic/history. Also I think so deep you can 3bet/fold for value, really, since he can't 4bet too wide vs your stack, so I don't actually think 3bet is worse due to higher stacks, especially when when he 4bets, he's just... not going to be smart enough to realize that you have awesome 4betting stacks, and 4bet you with ATC or whatever, and in fact I doubt they 4bet bluff ever, and even OOP I really think a 3bet/fold for value can be okay as he'd probably play fairly straightforward anyway so being OOP isn't a huge deal... these players aren't good enough to exploit position imho.

Like I said I probably flat too, though.

Also I noticed siomething funny, you decided not to cbet on a 842 or whatever board earlier with AJ because you said you think they will never give you credit for anything, but then you said he cbets here on a similar dry boardbecuase he never expect you to ever call with anything... isn't that contradictory? =D

Both are true, but I think in 25NL the "dry board therefore they don't hit and will fold" PoV is a lot more applicable then "dry flop they know I miss a lot and just cbet so they will float/raise bluff".

Also vs that player, I like a call because there aren't many pocket pairs you can get value from and he's folding AK AQ AJ AT which, if he were a higher level thinker (or just overall station) he may talk himself into bet/3betting or peeling thinking that you decided to c/r bluff a dry flop because you think he cbets 100% with air.

But I am saying that this random 25NL player probably doesn't think like that so a call is cool.

Turn is standard, and river is sort of sick.

I am unsure of this personally, I think it's close, maybe you disagree. I think fold's fine, but I'm generally the "when in doubt, call to find out" crowd, so, you know, I call sometimes.

Oh yeah you talked about hand reading after his river bet, I think sort of related to what I was talking earlier about a c/r, and I totally agree with you there; I'd call this vs quite a few players who'd 3barrel especially when I (think?) you took some time making your calls and they look sort of weak.

I know HU I'm never folding this, EVER, almost (although I'd 3bet usually, so
whatever, this hand won't happen I guess).

Oh, speaking of which and spending 8 dollars to find out whether someone is a maniac is DEFINITELY well worth it. I am a cat, and curioisity my bane.

Another argument is that you have position + a large stack, potentailly up to 200bb effective, so information on this player for the rest of the session, even if you lose this hand, would be very very useful, so I am not kidding when I say I am snap-calling here when it's close to neutral EV (which I think
we probably are) or even very marginally -EV.

Folding KTs on an AJ5 board is so nitty though. See if you had KTo with the K of diamonds and you semibluff, he would expect you to never fold to a bet/3bet so I think it's actually okay to bluff this; he folds most pairs and usually most weak diamonds; not sure if he'd continue with anything except for a nut or second nut flush draw, in fact, so actually vs his raising and cbetting range, you've got a tonne of fold equity.

OH AND YOU HAVE A GUTSHOT AND K HIGH (aka possibly the best hand!)

I just don't think playing back on "super wet monochrome boards" is bad because he will never continue here without a solid piece of the flop knowing that a) you are never folding a made hand b) you are never folding a draw, c) a draw has huge equity vs most mid-bottom-under pair hands, and this means he's basically got to fold most of his hands even a lot of made hands, not to mention he has a tonne of hands that missed that you're actually ahead of anyway (he's 23/21 at this point, so he's probably stealing fairly wide.

You having a flush or pair + flush draw or other monster draw stack-off hand is also entirely possible, so basically, yeah, I think this may seem counter intuitive, to bluff on a wet board when you don't have one of the semibluffing hands, but I think it's actually an okay spot for it.

Oh, and when you say you don't expect him to cbet 100% of his air... I think you are wrong. People will cbet 100% of his diamonds because he has a draw and because zomg, there is an ace on the board! Good board to cbet!

So I actually disagree with that. I notice you decided to not cbet Ajx or whatever board earlier with your 55, so maybe you're projecting YOUR tendencies onto the other players, but imho, 25NL players who are aggressive (this players seems to be) and cbets will def cbet A high broadway mono flops, they think it's an awesome board to cbet because it's so scary.

imho.

I like flatting AQ IP to keep pot small with positional advantage, but I think there is some value in 3betting AQ not to get the UTG to call, but to make him fold and ahve the maniac in the middle call because we know that he's horrible, although I guess flat calling lets us play a smaller preflop pot vs an unpredictable player, and we also have position on the maniac's action after the cbet (if there is a cbet, which in this case there isn't).

Basically I think we can 3bet for information + value. Yes, I said it, raising for information, but in this case it applies because we get very useful information from UTG but also lots of value from the donk.

We've seen the UTG flat a 4bet with AK so like, we're just looking to get him to fold (and we know he's usually folding since he has a tight range but AQ is well ahead of his range) so raising there is def not -EV even if we assume to be in bad shape if called, but we get so much value from the donk + we won't get value towned by AK QQ+, I think it's okay to 3bet there.

Also, I think with 1/3 of your stack in with KQ, it's not really a snap fold. In fact, I don't see myself folding KQs ever in that spot, though he's tight so whatever. Your pot odds are just so good.
Oh and when he flats 98 to your 4bet, which is horrid, I don't see anything he can do except to stack off the flop as he has decent equity vs your range of AK+ QQ+ trash (sort of). I think shy of making 2pair+ that is the best flop he can hope for.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 11:15 AM
thanks RO, granted there are some points are taking less variance lines which i should ; i was trying to tailor the video to the majority of beginners who are relatively new players and therefore marginal EV spots can be avoided sometimes.

i personally just think there is not a huge amount of bluffing going on at 25NL (especially multi-street bluffing), so i tend to give credit to people who say they have it (if its -EV to always give credit, its certainly not -EV by much and is a lot less variance then calling down/raising purely to find out).

on the A672Ahhh board, i think that he may well be taking a stab... im not sure he is value betting worse as that is super thin, and he basically pots it... im not sure anyone is really turning 55 into a bluff there, its more likely he is just value betting a flush/ trips or something.

calling min-raises even multi-way is pretty bad with hands like 58o that have no potential. i mean, yea, i might get paid if i flop trips/ 2 pair or whatever, but then when i flop 67 and chase 2 streets to hit a straight.... or make a straight and get stacked by a higher one/ make trips get outkicked etc... theres not much potential to playing it and also some reverse implied odds.

TT hand... yea i should have bet like $1.80 if im being honest that was just laziness on my part as bet slider clicks up to $2 automatically $1.80 would be better though yea

where is KQ hand? only hand i see is where i 3bet btn open and get 4bet.

again, i think some part of cash game play is lowering variance purely from a psychological view, if you make a couple of marginal call downs and lose it can ruin a session. i think theres much more benefit to waiting to pick up reads before trying to be a hero
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 11:17 AM
This is a very good thread Jack, I found it a few days ago. I have a question about that first AK hand in your NL25 video where the villain 3bet you from SB and then called when you 4bet to $5.50. I'm not sure if you've addressed these spots earlier in this thread, at least I can't remember right now. But what's your approach when you miss the flop with AK (ie you have no pair no draw) because I often find those spots difficult. If the villain checks then what is your line on different types of flops that missed you, when do you check and when do you cbet and how much compared to the pot (if we assume both started the hand with 100bb stacks), and if you get check raised after cbetting? And if the villain donk bets the flop then what do you do on different types of flops here?

And also how do you approach 4bet pots with AK when you've totally missed the flop but the villain had flatted your 4bet in position preflop?
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SheepMoose
Hey Jackwilcox, I'd sure love to hear you opinions on how to beat the different limits.
Did you play ABC tag poker at the lower limits or what?
.
yea, i mean i dont do anything crazy, you just gotta play solid. i think most of my edge at small-stakes came in 3bet pots actually because played horribly in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birkin
Where about in England are you from, if you don't mind me asking?
am from reading but go to university in swansea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruffalo
btw, are you at Reading Uni? a friend of mine just finished there, im sure you might know him if you go there.
no, see above ^^^
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_steamship
But what's your approach when you miss the flop with AK (ie you have no pair no draw) because I often find those spots difficult. If the villain checks then what is your line on different types of flops that missed you, when do you check and when do you cbet and how much compared to the pot (if we assume both started the hand with 100bb stacks), and if you get check raised after cbetting? And if the villain donk bets the flop then what do you do on different types of flops here?

And also how do you approach 4bet pots with AK when you've totally missed the flop but the villain had flatted your 4bet in position preflop?
good question.

if im position having 4bet and the guy would have called, im going to be cbetting basically any flop the same way i did when i hit. is part of the reason i only bet $3.50. like i said, it does a good job when i do hit of extracting value from some hands which dont want to fold, but it also gives me a really good price to fold out hands like 99 or something which was trying to flop a set.
if the flop was something like 235 and i had AK, if i cbet and were check/raised all in id have to call, because id usually have 10 outs (3 A's, 3 K's, 4 4's to make a straight) when i do and the pot is so big. thats something that unlikely to happen however as people dont get crazy in 4bet pots very often.

out of position, i actually the approach of checking my entire range on most flops in 4bet pots when we are 100bb deep. this is because there is usually only just over a pot sized bet left, which is more than enough to get in over 2 streets (i can bet turn and river instead), and by checking the flop i allow my opponent to stab at the pot (which is cool when i have QQ+, not so good when i have AK and miss though but never mind)
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 12:26 PM
wow i was skeptical initially but jack you did a pretty good job itt. nh sir.

i will be linking this to future BQ forum threads that ask about beating uNL and ssNL

NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-18-2009 , 02:28 PM
good video and had no issues with the quailty, pretty good i thought!!
looking forward to parts 2,3,4......
i like your thinking/reasoning with most hands except that 99 with the board being aaxx, i just couldnt see some1 check the flop and turn then wake up with an ace on river, i dunno! i think i call!
trying to improve post flop hand reading, so would like to see more of your readin the players, putting them on ranges, y u think they bet x- for value/bluff/weak hand etc etc, pretty much the way u made the first one! lol
loved the point regarding instead of $2, make it 1.75 if u think they have a weakish hand and want value..sounds silly coz some would think if they call a $1.75 bet y would they not call a $2 bet-ur losing 1bb, but it is a true, hence shops selling things for £1.99 instead of £2 to make u think its a lot cheaper!
how is ur bankroll at the minute? is it up much?

brilliant thread, keep it up!
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-19-2009 , 04:38 PM
Good video. This thread has been very helpful towards my game.

One very simple question I noticed in the video your standard raise is 3x BB which is pretty much the norm. I paid for some coaching over last few months and have always been told to make my STD raise 4BB's- at the micros do you reackon it will make any difference to what people will call with if you raise 3/4BB?
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-19-2009 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hibernian0762
Good video. This thread has been very helpful towards my game.

One very simple question I noticed in the video your standard raise is 3x BB which is pretty much the norm. I paid for some coaching over last few months and have always been told to make my STD raise 4BB's- at the micros do you reackon it will make any difference to what people will call with if you raise 3/4BB?
The differences are so small, imo. But I suppose they could become big over time.

The more dead money you make them put into the pot is better the less often that opponents are going after your cbets. Thus, at uNL where villains are weak-tight as hell, you're exploiting them by raising larger. Though, I would argue you could vary this by villain. Raise less vs calling stations... ect.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-19-2009 , 06:40 PM
nice video jack, if you could make the audio just a little bit louder and get 1 or 2 notches higher in res that would be amazing.

Very nice explaining done though for sure.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-20-2009 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaos_
Raise less vs calling stations
Surely you should be raising more vs calling stations, as they're the ones that are going to call you down with 2nd pair. If you raise more preflop, you can bet larger on later streets and get more value.

You can raise less against nits who are going to fold anyway, for example I raise 2.5x when in the SB when the BB is an ubernit, because he's folding so much anyway.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote
07-20-2009 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birkin
Surely you should be raising more vs calling stations, as they're the ones that are going to call you down with 2nd pair. If you raise more preflop, you can bet larger on later streets and get more value.

You can raise less against nits who are going to fold anyway, for example I raise 2.5x when in the SB when the BB is an ubernit, because he's folding so much anyway.
Raising less vs the calling stations PF allows you to get out postflop without any true commitment. Against the nits, its a fine line between betting enough to push themout without bleeding a few chips a hand.
NL10 to NL200 experiment - finding a way to beat each limit Quote

      
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