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06-10-2008 , 10:01 PM
I don't blame raising with KTs when folded to on the button, I make this move quite a lot.

While the draw is not great, I still consider a call depending on the villain if he likes to donk bet a lot or has a high AF. That looks like a decent time to float to the turn imo (villain dependent).
06-10-2008 , 11:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonfish11
WCGrinder (or anyone that wants to answer) first off thanks for this thread.

I have started to 3 bet and squeeze a lot because Ive come to the conclusion that calling PF is bad. I also seem to only cold call with medium pp. Pretty much like you recomended in earlier posts.

The question I have is when I get to bigger games where people are paying more attention isnt this going to be very easy for them to figure out and realize? Therefore if they raise AA preflop and I have position and call and the flop comes 69K. They cbet and I raise or even call here it screams set, if they pay attention to what I cold call with pre. Is this something I need to worry about? What % of the time are you cold calling with hands like 89s and 3 betting hands like 66 to throw off the thinking competition?

Also Im ready to make my move to $25NL please dont run me over during your prop bet (luckily I play 6 max)...Oh and good luck to you on that bet.

Oh and I mainly play 6 max so if you could answer like you were playing 6 max thats cool if not just let me know what you do for FR and Ill try things out to see how they work.
To be honest, as you mvoe up cold calling preflo becomes better because generally speaking people raise a much wider range and you start to gain an ability to play postflop well. However at low levels you really dont need to worry about balancing your range. Just play good hands strong and dont station weak passives or nits.
06-10-2008 , 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSDas
1. Did you start out Multi-tabling when you first started learning/playing low-ish stakes, and if so do you feel this affected your learning of the game in any way? I recently had a session of 6-tabling 6-max $25nl and dropped 6 buy ins through 900 hands, it was only my second time of 6-tabling and i'm kind scared to 6-table anymore incase that happens again.

1) No, i played less tables and tried to figure out wtf was going on. I started adding tables quickly, and this was probably not good. That said in Full Ring playing more tables isnt nearly as bad iyam. Just practice slowly adding in tables and go from there. There is no hurry.

2. In a low stakes 6-max game, do you feel that there's still room for more 'advanced' plays such as squeezing and two barreling(I just read your post about this and it was awesome)? I'm going through a tough run at $25nl and i'm trying to work out how 'adventurous' my game should be to play optimaly. Atm i'm trying to work from the ground up and not do any 'fancy' moves or anything, but when i play a big breakeven session i kind of feel like i'm not a long term winner at the game because i'm never playing any interesting pots.

2) Vs regs in the game it can be ok, but generally speaking at low levels people have the hands they represent. Take simple ABC lines to exploit them.

3. What's your play on the button with a hand like KJo, ATo, KQ, QJo etc when a standard TAG CO opens? The problem i'm finding is that your hand is generaly ahead of their range(in both hot-cold equity terms and playability) but when you re-raise you often fold out all of the hands your dominating, and when you flat call you miss the flop a lot and have to fold to a C-bet. Is it acceptable just to fold some of these hands?

3) If you dont think you can profitably play for it for a raise or a call, then yes =).

4. Same question for playing out of the SB against a button open, having AT in this spot always seems to suck balls, yet i feel too weak to fold it. Also, how often if ever do you cold call from the SB with non pair hands? Say you have 9Ts in the SB opens, what frequencies are you 3-betting/calling/folding in this spot?

4) Its way too opponent dependent. If there is a guy who usually folds to 3 bets im prob gonna 3 bet a lot. If a player is a lagtard who never folds a hand ever i prob just ditch it oop.

5. What's the longest downswing/breakeven stretch you've been on, at what limits?

5) In time, about a month. In hands, probably about 50-70k a couple of times. I will try to get a lifetime graph in here probably haha.

Thanks a lot for doing this thread, your replies have been very usefull and i think it's great that you're taking a lot of time to help people, good luck with the $25nl challenge!
Your welcome!
06-10-2008 , 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by margrades
How to you feel about limping with small pairs and suited connectors, in any position? Lets say for 25nl and under FR, and multiple limpers aready in pot.

Hoping for a monster hand of course.
Just attack that **** yo.
06-10-2008 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertyas
Hey wcgrider, I just got the book "Getting Started in Hold' Em" by Ed Miller
and read through the short stack stratergy section. I gave it a shot and was pretty
successful but I found myself in trouble when I become "mid stacked" (~35-60bbs?).
I usually play 100bbs so this stack size is pretty awkard for me. Any tips and
anys idea where I can get info on how to play mid stacked, specifically any written text/books or threads? I've tried using the search function buts its really hard !

Thanks
I have never played mid stacked in my entire life, and only played shortstacked for 2 days of my life when i had to hit gold star and needed to make the vpps.
06-10-2008 , 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
Hey WCG, I know you're crazy busy right now, but if you happen to be browsing, can you explain the $2 open you are using at 25nl while you 24 table instead of the standard $1?

Is this for the sake of the challenge to build pots faster or w/e and how successful is it?
If i had time to work with it I think it has potential but i have not done the analysis effectively.
06-10-2008 , 11:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roza7
How do i picck up tells live, when they seem stonefaced?
Put on sunglasses. When reading souls it is important to have good uv protection. (for obvious reasons)
06-10-2008 , 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realist
Hello. I' am playing NL Holdem FR micro stakes (10 NL) and would like to know what hands should i play on what position? There was a good Ed Miller's teaching in his blog, but it isn't there anymore.
Play good hands from everywhere, and less good stuff from late position. What that means to you figure out.
06-10-2008 , 11:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moya
WCGRider, when you first started taking poker seriously (not professional), how did you manage to "play properly" and avoid the normal distractions of being at home?

What distractions?

For example, my B&M Winrate is much much better than Online. Obviously it's possible the players are worse, but to me getting dressed, driving to the casino, sitting at the tables puts me on my A-Game.

Online games are so much tougher it isnt comparable.

However, when I play online. Most of my sessions I take seriously and have a decent winrate, but when I am bored, tired, hungry or something, my game takes a MASSIVE turn and and I can lose a lot.

My only weakness is hungry and sleepy. Just leave the games.

My thoughts to solving this is to have two online sites. One for when I really, really want to play properly (not tired, enough sleep, eaten) and the other for micro 1c/2c stakes where I can relax, have a couple beers and pass the time. Maybe even have the Football on TV.

Sort of wierd but w/e

Is this okay? What are your thoughts on the general subject?

Play good or get the **** out

Thanks,
Moya
Your welcome!
06-10-2008 , 11:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTamBiscuit
Hey Doug
Congratulations on trying so hard in your prop bet. Tough luck.

In your challenge you seemed to make squillions during EST night but struggled to breakeven during the day.

I have the same problem! I can make $20 per hour 8-tabling NL25 consistently during EST night ~8pm to 2am but outside these hours I can't find many if any loose tables and struggle to break even. My blind steals and raises get 3-bet a lot more and I feel like I'm being outplayed. Players won't stack off with TP but I still do sometimes especially with AK/AQ!

My stats are 13/8 over 53,000+ hands. My ATS is 33% My winrate is only 1.5ptBB/100 overall but only because I keep taking shots outside EST night. Each shot I've lost 4-buyins over 6 hours before I stop. One session I tried raising ATC on EVERY Btn,CO & HJ EVERY orbit on EVERY table and I was making nearly $10 an orbit across the 8 tables but then I'd overplay a hand and stack off and end up breakeven or down again.

So, my questions:
1.How do I beat the tight regulars that infest the EST day time?
2.If I can only beat the night, is that good enough to beat NL50 at night? (I feel as if I can't move up until I can beat NL25 daytime consistently).

Thks

Tim
I think you might be best off going super laggy during the day, not sure. I had better results tho during the day running super duper loose.

If you have 20 bi, take shots. Its just money = ).
06-10-2008 , 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CominUp
When u wake up wit Aces on the button, and before u there is a limp, raise and a 3 bet,

what will u need to do now? Move in?
too vague but generally a 4 bet is optimal.
06-10-2008 , 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveh07
Ok 25c / 50c blinds

Lets say you hold KT spades and you raise 4x from the button everyone folds and the big blind calls.... now flop comes

(pot currently is $4.25)

Js 9c 3h

Villain donks $3 at you he is unknown no reads what do you do?? do you call this and hope he checks turn and try to steal it... do you raise it?? its already a decent amount bet so raising might be spew or do you just lay it down? This situation happens frequently and I am just wondering your opinion on this
Just fold, he has a hand. If he donks 25-50c id raise tho.
06-11-2008 , 02:13 AM
hi doug- first i want to say that i think its real classy that you take time to help other people, should you ever be in munich germany, feel free to sent me a pm and i will invite you to a schweinshaxn.

as for the pokerstuff:
my background:
i am currently (since i began to play poker )-: ) a nl50 player.6max.
learned last month to play 4tables and still being relaxed.
my stats are weaktight ( depending on table 16/8 to 22/14 but with an af of 5-10). so i guess some kind of a weaktightaggroplayer.

since last week+yesterday my roll is 1650 (had 3k but cashed out to pay some bills+lost 300 in roulette and 4buyins yesterday).
my mainproblem is, everytime i try to play a style which fits to the characteristica of a good tag i loose. yesterday i lost 4buyins playing 20/18 in
1000hands. so my main question: when playing my weak style , i get 3,4dollar/100hands +rakeback over a samplesize of 50k hands.
is that okay? should i try to build my roll up to play 100nl and then adjust or try to change my style now to a perfect stats style before moving up? (with the difference that i should win while playing this style?).
or is everything good as long as i am winning?

2.
i contibet almost every flop i opened with. i really do have a problem with getting floated, doublebarrels and spotting flops which are bad for a contibet.
any advise how to learn that?
my normal line is raise, pot and if i got no hand at the turn check, if i got something i usually bet bet and bet the river with toppair or better, with middlepair etc i mostly check the river.
also i almost never call a bet with a gutshot or bottompair. is that normal?

3.
when playing small pocketpairs, i almost always just limp in and try to see the flop cheap- is that okay or should i raise 22-88 also? because if 3betted i mostly dont know what to do. i do it on real passive tables, but 1 or 2 regs and i completely shutdown to do that.
additional, if i am oop , calling a raise with pocketpairs facing 3 overs against 1villain, donkbet or not? call the contibet or not? (i always fold to a conti and never donkbet if missed)- leak?

ty

Last edited by jediandimaster; 06-11-2008 at 02:22 AM.
06-11-2008 , 03:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndThenWhat
But look at it this way. The hands you are putting him on, Do you really have the implied odds to call? How many times you hit one of your backdoors or gutshots will he actually call? If he is strong enough to call after you hit now you have horrible odds.
Here's the thing. Let's give you a pretty tight (i.e. strong) button raising range of something like 22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,A8o+,K9o+,QTo+. Let's assume you only call his bet when you flop at least a pair of nines or an open-end straight draw. In this case you will be calling only 36% of the time. This means that your opponent can bet $3 here and win $4.25 64% of the time, which is an expectation of $2.72. Your opponent is almost breaking even before we've even given him any chance to win the hand when called.

The upshot of this is that you can't simply fold to bets when you dont make a pair or good draw. You have to put your opponent under more pressure than that. This assumes an opponent with any skill at all; if your opponent simply bets out with good hands and checks with poor hands, then beating him is not going to be very difficult.
06-11-2008 , 03:30 PM
WCG... a few questions that I think I know the answer to, but still would like to hear from you:

1. Are the micro games still as bad now as they were when you first played them? Have you noticed any big changes?

2. In your one post you said that people playing micros should be raising and 3 betting a lot, and rarely (if ever) limping and cold-calling. I would assume after playing the amount of hands at 25nl, that you would still believe this to be the case. Am I correct in this assumption?
06-11-2008 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider
To be honest, as you mvoe up cold calling preflo becomes better because generally speaking people raise a much wider range and you start to gain an ability to play postflop well.
Sorry for the confusion but if people are raising a wider range of hands shouldnt 3 betting become more profitable (as opposed to cold calling)? I would assume if people have a larger pfr% on average 3 betting with moderate hands (AJ, KQ, SC, ect.) while you have possition will do a couple things.
1) Let you take control of the hand and
2) Help you narrow their range down if the call or 4 bet you.

I figured it would be better to 3 bet people who raise a wider range than people who raise a really tight range? Or are you saying people will 4 bet a wider range pushing you off a some of your 3 bet hands?
06-11-2008 , 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WCGRider
Put on sunglasses. When reading souls it is important to have good uv protection. (for obvious reasons)
I own sunglasses but do you own a blog?
Do you coach cash, I'm a SNG go player but have dabbled in cash.
06-11-2008 , 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jediandimaster
hi doug- first i want to say that i think its real classy that you take time to help other people, should you ever be in munich germany, feel free to sent me a pm and i will invite you to a schweinshaxn.

as for the pokerstuff:
my background:
i am currently (since i began to play poker )-: ) a nl50 player.6max.
learned last month to play 4tables and still being relaxed.
my stats are weaktight ( depending on table 16/8 to 22/14 but with an af of 5-10). so i guess some kind of a weaktightaggroplayer.

since last week+yesterday my roll is 1650 (had 3k but cashed out to pay some bills+lost 300 in roulette and 4buyins yesterday).
my mainproblem is, everytime i try to play a style which fits to the characteristica of a good tag i loose. yesterday i lost 4buyins playing 20/18 in
1000hands. so my main question: when playing my weak style , i get 3,4dollar/100hands +rakeback over a samplesize of 50k hands.
is that okay? should i try to build my roll up to play 100nl and then adjust or try to change my style now to a perfect stats style before moving up? (with the difference that i should win while playing this style?).
or is everything good as long as i am winning?

2.
i contibet almost every flop i opened with. i really do have a problem with getting floated, doublebarrels and spotting flops which are bad for a contibet.
any advise how to learn that?
my normal line is raise, pot and if i got no hand at the turn check, if i got something i usually bet bet and bet the river with toppair or better, with middlepair etc i mostly check the river.
also i almost never call a bet with a gutshot or bottompair. is that normal?

3.
when playing small pocketpairs, i almost always just limp in and try to see the flop cheap- is that okay or should i raise 22-88 also? because if 3betted i mostly dont know what to do. i do it on real passive tables, but 1 or 2 regs and i completely shutdown to do that.
additional, if i am oop , calling a raise with pocketpairs facing 3 overs against 1villain, donkbet or not? call the contibet or not? (i always fold to a conti and never donkbet if missed)- leak?

ty
1) Just build your roll and move up when your comfortable, there is no rush. Learn the game.

2) Yeah this is normal. Dont worry about having to double barrel or anything at this point yet. This strategy is fine and prob optimal.

3) RAISE THAT **** =).
06-13-2008 , 04:29 PM
What exactly is a "thin value bet."


I googled it, while i came up with value bet, i dont want to assume that i know what the whole term means.


Thanks alot
06-13-2008 , 04:32 PM
Do you think someone who is not a donkey, practices decent bankroll management and is otherwise emotionally stable should be a winner at .50/$1 nlhe full ring games online ?

Is it that simple ?
06-13-2008 , 04:41 PM
No it's not that simple. $.50/$1 is a decent level to be playing at, no random ass guy that knows BR management and emotionally stabled can just beat it. You're leaving out the most important factor.

You need to know how to play poker. Guess it depends on your definition of donkey. I would never start at $0.50/$1, unless you really wanna test your emotional stability.

If you're just barely starting, start at 2NL, if you have software post your stats post your hands and ask for tips or advice. Try to raise preflop as often as you are in the hand.

GL.

Question for Doug.

Do you feel that playing nit at low limit cash games is the best way to win them? (ex. 13/13/inf for 6 max)
06-13-2008 , 06:23 PM
Another question.

Books, how drastically do they help your game? I feel I'm a decent player now, and I have not yet to read any books. I'm not a very good reeter... I've never tried reading poker books, but I feel I probably would have a hard time reading them as I do everything I try to read. I have bad comprehension once I read it I forget it.

Would it be worth it to read books? I'd probably have to read it 10 times, would it be a good investment of time?
06-13-2008 , 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gussle
What exactly is a "thin value bet."


I googled it, while i came up with value bet, i dont want to assume that i know what the whole term means.


Thanks alot
A value bet is a bet that you hope will be called because you think you are ahead in the hand.

Betting for value if you have a somewhat weak hand but still believe you are ahead of your opponent is a "thin" or "light" value bet.
06-13-2008 , 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shick
A value bet is a bet that you hope will be called because you think you are ahead in the hand.

Betting for value if you have a somewhat weak hand but still believe you are ahead of your opponent is a "thin" or "light" value bet.

I am sorry, I dont understand where the "thin" comes in at. I thought it refered to the amount bet, I guess not.
06-13-2008 , 06:43 PM
Hey, great thread

I have a question, as this is something that is really bugging me, and going through my PT stats, it looks like this is where I lost most of my money.

Im currently runnning at 17/12/3 but my BB/100 is only 1!! (11,400 hands @ NL20)

Anyway, out of the money I lose, most of it is my QQ v KK or my KK v AA etc etc

This is what happened yesterday at FR NL20.......me and villain both had $20.....villian (no info on him) raised 4xbb (.80) in mid position, I was next to act and had JJ. I 3 bet and made it $3....all folded apart from villain who called.

Flop came 2 4 8 rainbow and villain bet pot......I thought and thought and thought but eventually folded, thinking that he knows ive reraised so must put me on big PP or at very least AK, and has bet pot. I put him on QQ, thinking he wouldve reraised again preflop with KK or AA, but at the same time thinking he could make the same play with tens (over pair to the board, and the type of hand that would raise and call a 3 bet preflop).

Also, I thought a reraise on the flop would mean all my money in the middle and realised this is where im losing most of money (big PP v bigger PP)

Anyway, I folded the hand (much to the disgust of my friend who was watching!!!). Id be interested to know what you wouldve done?

Thanks for your time, really appreciated

Last edited by newcomers; 06-13-2008 at 06:46 PM. Reason: EDIT

      
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