I don't get how anyone can advocate folding here.

He's got almost half his stack in already and there are tons of flush draws (since we don't have the ace of hearts, a nut flush draw is quite possible), straight draws, overpairs, top pairs and stupidity in villains range.

Don't show your hand!! No one cares you had aces, and you let people know you will fold big hands when pressured.... if youfold do so, and move on

Smells like the dude had a high heart with maybe a pair to go with it. If dude flopped a flush then so be it, but considering his pre-flop flat call and then his insta-shove it smells like a semi-bluff to me. I can get not wanting to get into a huge confrontation early when you may be dead, but I wouldn't have shown him because that just shows everyone at the table to beat on you when a 3 flush is on board.

If the raise were to something like 6BB then this would be the case. Twelve when everyone starts with 75... if he called to hit a set he wasn't getting the right odds. If he called with anything he wasn't getting the right odds. So taking the hand as a whole you already won in one sense, but what does he call 250 with that he folds to a shove pre?

Now to the flop decision in isolation. The pot is 530 you bet 425 he calls the 425 and raises the rest of his stack (775)
you are getting 2155/775 if my arithmetic is correct. Call it 3-1 or a 25% winning % needed. Those are huge odds. These are chip odds rather than financial expectation but we will stick with chip odds.


OK give him a range of flush set or flush draw+pair (1 of each) and we are nearly at the odds we need

Board: Th 8h 2h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.215% 22.46% 00.76% 667 22.50 { AdAs }
Hand 1: 76.785% 76.03% 00.76% 2258 22.50 { KhKs, TcTs, AhKh }

Even with this rather ludicrous range for villain we are close to the chip odds we need. You have to be pretty sure you are dead to fold here.

So to the range we actually give villain. What do we know?
O noes. Still we know he called a bet he probably shouldn't have and we know it's the first hand of a $1 SNG. Now do we think he has a set or flush over half the time here? O wait make that two-thirds of the time
Is he not shoving an overpair with a big heart? Or top pair likewise? What is he calling pre but not shoving the flop? Will he have more than half as many flush draws as flushes and sets combined? (the tourney life thing has a little merit but not very much, anyone want to quantify what edge you would fold here for survival reasons I'd love to see it)

No he wont. My microSNG experience also says so. Sans a massive read of some kind which does not exist here there is no way anyone advocating a fold can draw up a realistic range to support binning the bullets. I haven't seen anyone even try tbh

Well, there is a lot of good information here from both points of view. I guess my online experience isn't enough to judge which one is the right move... I won't deny it. I had been playing SnG's for a few hours that night, and quite often see some of the same people at the table. I can honestly say by showing I had AA, I wanted to set up my table image by showing that I wasn't afraid to lay down the bullets. Whether or not that's a good move I'm still unsure. I'm not too aware of how big table image really matters in micro limit SnG's yet. So it was either a good move or a bad move. I'm confident in my game though and I have a pretty intermediate grip on odds, position, range, and such. I still need a lot of work reviewing my previous play though, and esp on multiple level thinking.

So next question, was it really bad or good to show my hand (in that situation)? After that, I got a bit more respect for my raises and was able to steal with position quite a few times later on. I honestly don't know if it's b/c of my fold though & show, or maybe I was just lucky. Maybe I shouldn't worry about table image at micro limits? Could use some experienced answers on this!

Showing is giving opponents information for free, you should have auto-muck hand on anyway. You aren't playing the old mans game in a casino where everyone goes "Oooooo!" when they see Aces, you are playing to win money. You don't get bonus money for showing you got Aces

No there really isn't as far as the flop goes. I'm not sure I got across how bad I think folding this was. It's a fistpump call on any vaguely realistic range for opponent. A no-brainer.
imo showing is anything from very slightly bad to quite bad (very rarely better than not showing to put it another way) but the sng is over now so meh

Yea but the learning continues, and I'll gladly accept any criticism. I need it! I'm only here to learn and improve my game from more experienced players. I've been reading the forums for a while, but reading other peoples plays only helps so much. Need some of my own read! I really wish I had saved info from the rest of his play throughout the game so we could get an idea of this guys range, but whats done is done. I initially didn't even consider posting this here to start, but I think I'm going to try to keep a detailed log from some of my game play.

Well you learned that any non-trivial question you pose will get contradictory responses at least Evaluate them critically

Narrowing down his range ex post facto will not help much though. It's information you didnt have at the time and your decision does not stand or fall on what he actually had.

I know it's a call because I've played a lot of micro sng and experienced many bizarre early hands, and because the pot odds are so compelling. He will probably shove every time he has you beat so what proportion of the time does he shove a hand you beat? My answer is much more than 1 in 3 (even with all the hands you are ahead of having flush draws, never mind say black kings or two pair which you can't expect him to fold either)

Poker Stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP2: $1.78
CO: $2.66
BTN: $1.99
SB: $2.11
BB: $1.00
UTG: $3.00
Hero (UTG+1): $6.38
MP1: $5.37

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG+1 with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, BTN calls $0.10, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.33) Q 4 10 (3 players)
Hero bets $0.30, CO raises to $2.66 all in, BTN calls $1.89 all in, Hero...???

You've got a shove and a cold call in front of you. Even without reads, one or both villains obviously have something better than one pair. Out of position, your hand now looks a bit naff. Pitch it.

Position is completely irrelevant at this point
The villains do not 'obviously' have something better than one pair. One or both of them will have sometimes.
Work out the odds, assign the ranges, crunch numbers and see what you get. The point about these types of hands is that they are amenable to arithmetic. No further betting to worry about, completely specified odds, guess what they have and stove it. Ez game.
It also gets some measure of how profitable or costly something is rather than simply being right or wrong. Useful info to have.

I did a little analysis re openshoving AA.

I have done it 27 times (just the ridiculous overshoves at 10-20 blinds counted here where there is little evidence for getting a call from previous action) and got one or more calls 13 times.

I would struggle to play them more profitably any other way imo

All 45-mans tho mainly $3 and $6 with the odd $12. Sample size yada yada but worth bearing in mind.

EP, first orbit or so of low limit tournaments where nobody knows you I definitely think it's a reasonable play occasionally. You'll get calls from the clueless as well as people figuring you are clueless and calling you light.

folding here is terrible

there is no "argument" for it

(@ OP wtf multiple hands)

Occasionally?
What do I do the rest of the time?

Wow that's quite a long post for you

$1 nl sng.
i woulda have gotten as much in preflop such that a shove on the flop would have been instant.
This is a $1 SNG, preflop shove with AA is prob going to get called and a call here is still profitable given villain's range.

how did you show your hand after you fold? also that was a horrible move now people will think "LOL MEGA NIT, WE CAN BLUFF THAT DUDE OFF AA"

2nl this is a snap call. villain would be holding AQ QK QJ .. lol even Q/5 or a draw
you beat a wide range of hands here and those that beat you would prob flat instead of going all in.

There is a slim chance you are beat but at this limit, a call is profitable over 50% of the time.

$1 SNG, your UTG first hand and you get AA?
Sounds like an open ship to me, and I'm not joking either.
You will almost always get a caller.


EDIT, oh, and as played, call obv.

lol so your advice is to fold to any bet when you dont have the nuts?

i couldnt fold them at that buy in level

easy fold


op, you should have called imo

so where do your ranges disagree?

i believe fast motion was agreeing with me on calling u misquoted him to make it look like we're conflicting.

No his call advice was relating to the hand in the OP. He thought the cash hand was a fold.

Not that anyone knows why he does, or why half the people in this thread think the actions they advocate are correct. It might be easier to just post polls with hh and then we don't need to reply at all