Merge $4.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $3.94
SB: $2.42
BB: $2.46
UTG: $1.28
UTG+1: $1.85
UTG+2: $4.57
Hero (MP1): $4.00
MP2: $2.55
CO: $4.60

Pre Flop: ($0.06) Hero is MP1 with Q A
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.08, 4 folds, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.18) Q 3 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.09, BB folds

Final Pot: $0.18
Hero wins $0.09
(Rake: $0.00)

I'm assuming villain folded a hand worse than mine. Does that make my bet here a mistake? I hear so much talk about betting to make worse hands call or better hands fold. My bet here apparently accomplished neither. Was I wrong to bet?

no. you *hoped* worse hands would call, but they didnt. No problems, next!

?? what is this idiocy ?? why check?

Right, but worse hands didn't call. All my betting did was make a worse hand fold. Naturally I did not know villain would fold when I bet but now that I know that, I'm thinking my bet (in this particular case) was a mistake. Might checking behind and letting villain maybe bluff on turn or catch a piece of the board have been more EV in this case?

If vil is aggro you can check back and let him lead the turn and possibly river. Otherwise bet and hope to get called by Qx, 9x or a pair.

Edit: it will also become very transparent to only bet when you have air and check back when you have a strong hand. Vil can then profitably c/r any flop you bet.

So then it's not necessarily wrong to bet and make a worse hand fold? I'm not trying to sound silly but I hear so much of this and I'm really trying to discipline myself to make my bets for reasons. I'm wondering if the betting to make worse hands call or better hands fold rule applies more to the river?

I mean prior to the river there's usually something villain could catch to outdraw the hero. Is it important to bet on a fairly uncoordinated flop like this? The only hand that has good draws is JT. I generally bet top pair top kicker hands but sometimes I try and experiment with playing them passively trying to induce bluffs or bring weaker hands along. Seems like that backfires more often than not.

So, I'm still wondering what's wrong with betting and making worse hands fold prior to the river?

The reasoning behind your bet is to get value from worse Qs, some 9s, JT, and maybe AK. On this type of board if your opponent misses he is likely to have air with a hand like 87s. Even if you check you are not going to have any chance to get any additional value and if your opponent had something like 8d7d and the Td hits the turn you have given him a huge draw for free. If you had Q9 here instead, then a check might make more sense because an opponent with an A or K in their hand might hit an A or K on the turn and think they are good. But with your one-pair hand your bet is correct for value and protection. Even though your TPTK is strong on the flop, letting a free A or K come on the turn would be a disaster.

Although slowplaying is not advisable at these stakes, where a villain will often call your c-bet with bottom pair, before giving up on the turn when your 2nd bet makes it "obvious" you have the best hand, I've recently started checking TPTK on dry flops like this, hoping that villain will pick up a draw or a pair on the turn, or if he's aggressive, let him bluff at the pot.
The trouble with getting "fancy" and checking is that apart from giving villain the chance to improve to 2 pair or a set, you also don't gain any information in regards to narrowing villain's range. While "betting for information" is frowned upon (a bet should usually be for value or as a bluff), it's a lot easier to know where you're at if you lead out on the flop. If you wait till the turn to bet, a raise by villain could put you in a difficult spot. Is he raising with a weak ace that he checked behind with on the flop (so you're ahead), or has he now got the best hand? You just don't know. If you bet the flop, then bet the turn, a raise is a pretty good indication you have the worst hand. It's probably best to stick to the standard bet-bet line, firstly for value, but also to make decisions on later streets easier.

I find this to be very true.

Dude, dude, dude. . .
This question should be on the introduction to Dan Harrington's Vol I..

You're a complete pigeon if you just said ''Does that make my bet here a mistake'' because he folded when you had top-top.

Sigh. . .
Wanna play heads-up?

(Sorry if my comment didn't help you in any way, the other comments have given you enough valuable information so i'll just leave).

I think you are misunderstanding the concept a little bit. Theoretically, every single time you bet you hope that a worse hand will call. This is true whether you have the nuts or you have 9 high. If he has 6 high and wants to call, then that is great. Typically this doesn't happen.

When you have a good hand, most of the hands that will call you are behind - this is good for you. When you have a bad hand, most of the hands that will call are ahead. When you bet with a bad hand you expect that if they call you are behind - therefore you are betting to get that hand to fold. When you bet with a good hand, you are betting to gain value - hoping that a worse hand will call. Most of the time, when you bet with a good hand your opponent doesn't have a good hand - and therefore they are going to fold no matter what you bet. You can't help that. You hope they call, and expect them to fold. But the only way to get a lot of money from them is to bet. Checking simply gives them a free chance to catch up, and eliminates one chance to extract money.

OP, bet more pre, 12c would be better. Board is dry but you can still bet 12c OTF.

Betting here is correct, 4NL villains will call with worse. Not betting because they might fold is incorrect, you bet against a range not a specific hand. If you could see his cards and he has air and you know he will fold to a bet...then it would be a mistake to bet.

This is a forum for beginners' questions, not beginners' answers.

lol. But seriosly, be happy to take the pot "right here" without having to see the flop. That's why Flop Cbet's are so useful. they pay to see the flop, but do not catch anything, you cbet, they fold.

At your situation, you had top pair, possibly it was the best at the time. But do remember that two more streets can turn everything upside down.

Frowned upon? By who? why would it be? It is not cheating. Moreover, poker is a game of deception, a game of getiing the info on the villain and making the right decision.. I do not get it..

And how's betting for information differs from a bluff or value bet? If you do no have anything and bet, it's a bluff. If you do, and you bet - it's a value bet. Where does 'betting for info stand'?

"Betting for info" generally translates to "I really have no idea why I am betting but want to make a bet cause I am kinda lost"

Id have to agree you generally gain info from observation. I think info gained from betting is merely a side effect of a bet and shouldn't really be a primary reason behind a bet.

I am betting here for X reason and and Y villian did Z in response with XX using the info I gained as a side effect from villains response I can do XYZ in the future to maximize my ev.

Slowplaying here is villain dependent, and you should do it some of the time. Most of the time, this is definitely a clear cbet though.

"a side effect of the bet" -very well put. But how can it be frowned upon then?

According to the Fundamental theorem of poker, you may have made a mistake in this particular instance because if you had known your opponents exact 2 cards, you would know the best way to play your hand against him.

But you don't know your opponents exact cards so the best you can do is to play in terms of ranges. Everyone is going to make mistakes according to FTOP every time they play poker, but thats ok because we know we can very rarely put our enemies on two hole cards.

Obviously you want to bet here because you have top pair and you are nearly always ahead of villains range, and you want to keep the initiative and you want to get some value and build the pot for the times when he does have a hand and is willing to pay you off. Sometimes he will have air and fold.

You shouldn't start checking every time you have a hand and bluffing all your air just because your afraid of making a "mistake" according to FTOP. Play in terms of ranges.

The only mistakes i see in this hand are not raising enough preflop and not cbetting enough on the flop.

Ignore that clown. If you look though this morons past posts on BQ, you will find a thread where me and him had a long argument and see he is nothing more than a pathetic troll.

OP:

Here your betting for value. Your wanting worse hands to continue.

I would say your sizing is off - should be more than half pot.

How often do you open to 2x preflop from MP1? You will find yourself playing OOP to CO and BTN more often than you want to be.

You are also exploitable to later positions in several other ways unless you bump it up a little higher pre.

0.12 or 0.14 would make this pot 0.26 or .30 OTF. You can then lead out 0.16 to 0.20 and make more money on these hands.

I don't think its frowned upon except most people don't do it correctly. Ex. I have XX on flop YYY and I bet two thirds pot for value against villains range and my read tells me he won't raise my flop bet without the nuts. He raises and I easily fold cause he gave me the info my hand is no good where as if he called I will know im good. Same bet two different outcomes and the reasoning behind the bets was the same the info was the side effect. Not the primary reason.

Just read this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/87...rmation-26995/