I ve been playing NL25 /4tabling a little more than 2 months (i have 4 year experience in poker in general but never was a serious cash player)
In this time i have made like 600$ in around 80k hands thats around 1.5PTBB per 100 hands on average... + 600$ from rakeback, bonus dollars , cash for points option..

Anyway... i dont want this to sound like i am trying to brag( there is not much to brag about) or anything like that.... i just want to state that so its clear for you all who reads this.... but

But i am by far the best player around at these limits... no biggie i know its not hard... thats what i am saying.... i have improved a lot in these 2 months since i play almost every day from 3-7hours and i feel good about my improvents and my game right now ( a lot to learn/improve etc i know.. dont have problems with that... i am qucik learner)

The real questions i am asking myself... how comes if i am the best player around these limits i am making only 1.5PTBB/100 in 80k hands? i mean these guys have no clue what they are doing... even the regs are weak... they lack knowladge of game and understanding in actions they make... the reasons behind what they are doing... they play weak game i have no doubt about that...

You might say hey dude you might not be as good as you think... i think i could be doing pretty well at NL100 but i am not saying i can beat anything higher than that...so i know what i can and what i cant....

So how do you play at NL25? I mean you cant make reasonable bluffs because people just wont fold those hands... they never think 2 steps ahead and sometimes it feels like they doesnt think at all... so they lack of understanding and skills controls my game as i cant make a lot of moves just because most of the time they dont fold...

I would like to hear some advice from people who got past NL25 and got good PTBB/100... how does one person play to get a good result at these limits.. i mean PT5BB/100 or above... perhaps you guys some got graphs/stats to share ... of course anyone is welcome to say if they got anything to say about this whole thing i wrote or any advice.... thx for reading i hope i can find some answers with help of you guys...

I would say to pose your question at the Micro Full Ring or Micro Stakes NL forums, there are plenty of 25NL players there that could answer your questions...

i forgot to mention i play 6max and i was thinking to get some answers from players that have gone past NL25...

Stop trying to make moves, and cut your pure bluffing frequency right down. ABC tight-aggressive poker is the way to go. Beating the hell out of 25nl is all about playing good hands, being positionally aware and VALUE BETTING.

More specifically:

- Stop open-limping, if you haven't done so already. If you're first in, always come in for a 3.5-4BB raise.

- Stop slowplaying. The people at 25nl will call you down very light, so fastplay all of your big hands for maximum value. Bet, raise and reraise all of your big hands unless you have a very good reason not to.

- Really tighten up your ranges from UTG and the blinds. At 25nl I would only be defending pocket pairs, AJ+ and KQ from the blinds. A reraise or fold strategy works well.

- Increase your aggressiveness from the cutoff and button. Use position relentlessly. If you're going to play a hand from one of these positions, always raise regardless of limpers. If 2 people limp to you on the button, raise 4BB + 1BB per limper with almost the same range you'd raise if it was folded to you. You'll often be able to isolate limpers and take down the pot with a continuation bet when they check to you.

- Oh, and read the stickies in the micro NL section!

Good luck.

Do you mean i shouldnt 2barrel with air/weak draw when i feel guy is weak? Obiously 3barreling is out of questions yes? How about 3betting light? How about taking down raised multiway pots on turn when flop checked around? Raising draws on turn and betting river if miss? I guess raising river as bluff is not a good idea?
I mean its very hard for me to cut down eveything of this... because 1) i dont want to become one of those tight ass players who just play cards because i know its not the winning play at higher levels... which i is my aim with time... 2) i just think i should be learning stuff at lower levels where i lose less while i am learning...

Then my question is... when should i start opening up and start making moves/bluffs more? i mean at what level?

Well based on your post, maybe you should be the one giving us advice. I don't understand, you can generalize everyone else's game and criticize them for being weak, yet you are asking for help? I don't understand, if you are by far the best, you don't need us.

Check out some of the videos in the nl forums. If I could go back and watch videos from better players Id be a lot farther along then I am now.

Scroll down a few pages and there will be videos by a lot of winning players. Also ask in one of the ***** threads in the nl forums for more videos by good players.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=100801

It depends on your opponents, board texture etc. There will be weak-tight opponents whom it is profitable to 2 or 3 barrel in certain spots, but for a lot of opponents at 25nl this will be pissing away money. There's no point making fancy plays against people who can't fold, or can't appreciate what you're representing.

"i dont want to become one of those tight ass players who just play cards because i know its not the winning play at higher levels..."

This is the wrong attitude, IMO. You should play whatever style is most profitable for the stakes you're playing. The tactics appropriate for a low stakes game aren't going to be the same as those for a high stakes game. Playing a profitable style at the lower stakes can be boring at times, but you have to put up with that if you want to make money.

I think you can start to open up your game more in 50nl, experiment with light 3-betting and so on. Mixing up your game becomes of an issue in 100nl IMO.

two words.. tight aggressive.

I have recently started my 3rd attempt or so at 25nl recently, migrating over from sngs once again

I'm running 17/15/4.5 or there abouts, and am playing much more basic than I was before. I tried playing lag at 25nl at one point, and it just went really horribly. There's no way to bully a table willing to get it all in with Qx or something.

I've tried 3 betting light on occasion, and have had really bad results with it. People seem to be unable to fold to a resteal, and often are willing to overplay marginal hands afterwards (wait for the nuts and value bet hard). Its really gotta be a hard core read on a certain player for me to do it anymore.

so far over 6k hands I'm -2.15 bb/100, and have paid $125 in rake with no rakeback(**** you full tilt). I'm running pretty aweful overall, which doesn't help, and have had a few times where I just spewed. I had one table that I tilted away about $80, so I guess without that I would be up a bit :P. I'm making a conscious effort to play to the best of my ability every time I sit down, never have been very susceptible to tilt, and still wind up making wrong moves in the heat of the moment. I highly doubt you're perfect every day. If you were then sell your house (or most expensive belonging) and move up to chase the money.

Normal response to a post like this is that if you're making money stop complaining, because there are lots of people with 20+ buyin splits between expected winnings and their $$$ in cashier. If you are playing perfect in every situation then the money will come...its just variance and the way the cards are falling.

Most people here say they call too much and can't fold at NL25, yet they say you should really tighten up. I think this is not the best way to play these limits. What I do is open up my range, play lots of hands with big implied odds. People will stack off with TPTK very often so hands like 67s can be worth much. Also cause I find people at these limits betting too small often, giving you implied odds to call to hit your straight/flush.

What you also often find when your in an avarage pot when you got a good hand that people just shove after the turn cause they don't know what to do, it's a big pot and they want it with a bad hand. If that happens when you hit your straight/set/flush = $$$.


I'm winning about 8bb/100 now for about 10k hands and I've played a 29/27 game. Use your HUD to find leaks in people's game, if they fold too much to a 3 bet you can 3bet them lighter... I

1) i agree with you AApjAA.. people stack off so light that playing suited connectors and small pps when they are full stacked or deeper is very profitable....
2) no idea how can you play 29/27... i mean i started to open up a lot more from around 15/12 i am now 18/14 since i have a lot of hands when i was playing tighter i might be playing 20/15... anyway
3) dont use HUD but i consider starting to use it....

4) to Gospy... lets put it this way ... its much easier to observe other people than it is yourself... you need to a lot more objective about yourself (which i am) but its harder than being objective about other players...

5) to SpanksOnaPlane .... i didnt say i was perfect.. what i said was i am better than them because its not that hard since you just have to use your brain to make eliminate all those basic mistakes they keep doing over and over again.... i am not complaining... i just dont understand how come i dont win at least as much as i think i should be winning...

i must agree and i guess i ll take actions to eliminate this "wrong" attitude...

i just know that most tight ass players never going to be good... they ll never even reach the higher limits just because they are scared of losing and that stops them from winning...

but hey if it helps i ll gonna tighten up... shees still find it so "weak" since i was trying to open up my game the whole time... anyways thx for advice

1) Glad you agree

2) I was a slightly losing player with a limited bankroll, bought a year subscribtion to stoxpoker (now you can get 6 months free) which costed a ton (if I compare to my bankroll) but now I'm very happy I did it. They got a few lower stake video's out and they got the example of Leatherass who grinded his way up to the higher games running now. He also said that it's important to open up your range at the lower limits and tighten up the higher you go.

Playing 15/12 is realy tight even for higher lvl's. My PFR is also very close to my VPIP as I almost never call preflop, mostly raise or fold. (I'm talking about 6max here)

3) Def do it. Worth the investment.

I pretty much agree with everything that's been said - OP, if you just cut the **** I think you'll easily be able to double your 1.5PTBB winrate.

Also, don't assume that someone's weak just because they're tight - I play a tight game (20/18/3) and have no problem calling down with a weak hand or getting it in light if the situation warrants it. I'm not concerned about losing.

Also don't assume that they don't understand the game either, if anything I think they may understand the game BETTER than you do at this point - they may just know well enough not to get fancy and LAGGY at uNL. Maybe they would play 30/27 or something if they were playing 200/400NL+.

wow so over 80K hands you are the best 25NL player. Hmm sorry I didn't know my 7bb/100 sucked.

didn't really read much else but he nailed it. Use your HUD to find leaks, not just others though, yours too.

Your sample size is small. You can be running hot or cold, so 1.5bb doesnt prove that you are a winner or loser. But if your rakeback is exceeding your winnings, then most likely you are a breakeven player at best. You definately need to work on your respect for other players and come off the high horse with reference to you "best player at nl25". Everyone has room for improvements, and it is unlikely that you will play enough hands to determine who is the best at one particular level, especially a level where people abuse then move up.

1) i would like to get this straight... what i ment was i was best player at these limits at this site (UB... ye ye i know... cheaters etc)
2) there nobody moving up to higher limits just because most of them who would move up dont do it at least at UB since NL50 is all bad beat jackpot tables... which is very unreasonable to play....
3) i know what i am talking when i say these guys have no clue what they are doing.... they are gambling most of the time... i mean there are some good people time to time but as i find out most of them are some high limits players doing dunno what in these limits (prop bets, making some easy money...anyway) now these guys i played.. i can tell they are good... so dont misunderstand i am some begginer who has no idea whats going on...
4) i ve been playing poker a long time... but mostly MMT live/online and most of my game consits on reads so i have a solid background and understanding of the game.. (even before i got serious about cash games)
5) i red fees 6max guide... and i might of taken too much from it to use at NL25... might be the case... no i am not worried about improving game... i am good at it...

finaly i want to say i played 9hours of poker today... when down 4 buyins first session and went up 6 in second session by playing a lot different game... and i guess this is what i have to do an improve... just play cards as they fall most of the time... hopefully i ll be doing better than 1.5PTBB/100...

p.s
80k hands are you kidding me? i have red that some people overrate the hands needed to tell is player a winning or breaking even.... i am a slight winner i guess...

Come on dude, once you lose this attitude your winrate will go up.

alright... how do you think i should be thinking? i ve been playing there for more than 2 months there and i know all regualars there... there are very few players that play reasonable... perhaps few are playing good poker (for NL25) and i know them so i play accordingly.. and they are the ones i can "outplay"... everybody else is weak... tight... loose... crazy but mostly weak because they dont see this game beyond cards and even if they play only cards they usually play them badly ...

like i said i know what i am saying...i know when i am playing a better player... its just like when some random guy sit down at my table post blind dead blind and minraises when folded to him... you know you got a fish... just like that i know that most regs are weak... some over multitabling and playing weak game (limps wtf?!)... i just see for their some of their plays they make... good player never will make these kind of "mistakes".. you cant actually make a mistake of stacking off light with top pair all the time...
not to mention facts that they still dont understand what looking for better table is... because most of them just sit at 5 reg table and having time of their life... and ofcourse.. playing the same way no matter fish or reg... half of them doesnt use any PT or anything...
And i must mention that there are very few regs in terms of players that are multitabling and playing for to get better and earn some nice profit... there are a lot of "regs" fish who come to have a good time and lose their money...

After all this and many more i havent mentioned... should i be thinking... wow these guys are tough... i should be carefull with them? Or i should be objective about the situation and say i am best player around there... what will take them year to learn i learn in next two months... (when i started playing 2 months ago i didnt know al ot of stuff about cash games... but i have learned a lot in these two months since i am playing poker for living/learning the game 24-7 past 70 days).... so i dont think my winrate has to do anything with my attitude... my attitude is great because i actually spend time improving it...

I was the best 25nl player on pokerstars for 1 minute on July 13, 2007, because my AA held up in a 5-way pot. 8)

one i would like to mention is.... by saying that i am the best player at these limits i am not saying how good of a player i am ... i am saying how bad they really are... i am no great poker player since i am just starting playing cash games seriously... and i am still playing only NL25... wanted to clear this one out because i feel some of you think i am saying that i am very great player (pff 1.5PTBB/100 obv not great)

This is the problem right here, you should ALWAYS be thinking about improving your game. I think this has been said way too many times on 2+2 but if you can't beat the "bad" players then what are you expecting when you move up to limits where your not "the best player around".

Not everyone needs to improve. If RoyalGamer is having a good time that is what matters. Type A overacheivers need to improve their game. Folks who want to make a job out of poker need to improve their game. Hobbyist players don't need to improve.

Sure, for most of us improving brings satisfaction (in addition to more money) but if RoyalGamer is having fun and thinks he is the best player around then good for him (even if it is not true). Who are you to burst his bubble? As long has he is happy with his current level I'd prefer he stagnate so I can take his $$ more easily