I can only play live poker. I cannot stare at a screen and play seriously. So, the only real life experience I get is live play. Which is extremely limited. Mostly when I go to Vegas.

I've really matured as a player recently. I was a huge fish before and theoretically not that much of a fish any more but in practice equally the same fish.

I used to just know the basics of poker and pretty much played my cards with a rudimentary reading of the board and opponent.

Now, I am analyzing my game at an incredible level compared to others on a $1-3 table ( I mean I'm not a pro or anything but I can analyze the game. Just returned from my first of the three planned trips to Vegas for this year. I observe all action. Easily spot the fish. Easily analyze each player. When I am in a hand with a player, he is never a stranger to me. I know exactly what he's done before etc. I analyze the play and can easily assign a range and evaluate.

So, when it comes to decisions theoretically it's getting easier but in practice I can't seem to follow my own analysis. My biggest leak is my absolute inability to lay down my big Hands even when I absolutely know I'm beaten.

For example. A fishy villain gives a big speech about not trusting my river bet wanting to look me up as I've been pushy and then raises the river. Everything he's done so far with that firmly tells me he's made the straight. I Even tell him his speech followed by the big bet means he's got my two pair beat. Calls his exact hand. What do I then do, call to look him up WTF

I can easily see my trips are beat against this competent villain. I know 100% certain from the play that he knew I have trips. He is still being super aggressive. My kicker is weak, but even worse from the play I know he's made the boat and hoping I'll call with the trips. Even if all he has is the trip, I'm most likely out kicked. But I can't fold my trips. I call. WTF

It goes on and on and on......don't get me wrong. I'm laying down TPTK, two pair etc when it's as obvious as day light. But Im unable to do it all the time.

A fish calling me down and makes everything on the river. Why do I have to call his huge river bet with just my set of kings? WHY? Why do I care it's so hard to hit a set holding kings when I know I'm beaten. He's made everything and made it so obvious to me and the whole table. Why do I have to still call?

How do I train myself to trust my analysis and make big folds when it's obvious I'm lost.

I know I will never played exhausted ever again. But I don't think it was just exhaustion that made me do these though. I have to change as a person. I don't tilt. I lost my whole stack to a 3 outer on the river after having shoved the turn. Didn't faze me, I was glad the villain gave me a 94% chance to give me his money- he did his level best. Few hands later my monster boat was beaten by a better boat. I could not have gotten away from that, down almost $500 in no time. Didn't faze me. I had the bankroll and before the session I made it all back and more as I was playing at a whole new level and had 6 fish on the table. I wasn't going anywhere. This was my first session.

My poor play started when I decided to play through the night as that was the only night I had and then just slept for three hours and continued the next morning. But I don't think it was exhaustion as the next morning I was analyzing well, just didn't follow my own advice. That night I retired after I realized I'm not analyzing well and was too tired. I played 18 hrs of poker in a 28 hr span. (I'm saying all of this as I am hoping someone would say its exhaustion and I just wasn't being an idiot)

Sorry it got so long. Does anyone else do this? You guys have experience to reflect on this. Why am I being such an idiot. The game is hard as it is with the variance and some good players who can put me in a tough spot. Why am I making it more difficult with my idiocy.

tl;dr

to keep it short, you are doing yourself a major disservice by only playing live. The learning curve is simply way too expensive. You need to figure out what it is about staring at a screen that keeps you from taking it seriously. It's 100% serious when even two cents are involved in a pot.

Can you expound on that?

Read The Mental Game of Poker, it'll help with that. You'll also develop it over time.

you should think of online poker as a training ground for the live game which is more lucrative if you are able to get in the right games. you see far more hands and are able to figure out what works to a higher level of certainty. also, there are analysis tools, convenient exporting of hand histories, etc that can elevate your game.

when you say "cannot stare at a screen and play seriously" are you not confident in your ability to beat it? that's something I'd work on for one. You probably haven't played a statistically significant sample size in live to know the extent of your abilities, and besides, live is much softer.

every time I play at the casino all the "regs" talk about their experiences online and how bad everyone plays, and yet none of them win online because they think it's "rigged". just saying - if you find it tough just face up to it instead of being conceited and scoff at it

I have both 'Metal Game of Poker' books and they are good to read and work into your LIFE, not just poker.

Poker doesn't owe you anything ... And neither do the opponents who play 'their game' which just happens to get in the middle of collecting 'your' chips.

When people ask me about my poker I often mention that the more I 'know' the harder the game actually gets. You feel more comfortable .. but does that mean you are making 'poorer' decisions since you previously weren't in those spots to begin with? We tend to remember the extremes in our life ... Are you winning less 'huge' pots since you are laying down marginal spots where you used to suck out and 'pad' your bankroll without 'remembering' that your money went in at 16%? Your opponents don't even see these spots and since they are in them 'all the time' they are going to suck out more, right? You want to focus on decisions, not results.

I'm not going to pretend to know your dynamic so I can only speak of mine. As we get better at something the human aspect kicks in and we feel we 'deserve' better results than those who know less, haven't worked as hard or don't take the game as serious. We also want to know that we were correct in the BIG lay down and didn't get taken advantage of by 'him' pulling off a River bluff so we make 'sure' and force him to show by calling. DNegreanu used to do this all the time. In the last 2 or 3 years I have seen much less out of him (that they show anyway)

You probably do know 'the rules' of the game better than most, but what do you really want out of the game? Money? The win? To feel superior? The books (basically a very well organized self evaluation) will help you weed out the things that keep your game (goals) from being a moving target. If you are there to win money, then don't target a specific opponent or some 'human' need to show the table you are 'greater than thou'. "Hey buddy" (no offense) The table doesn't care!! I have booked many a session with a 85% 'hand' win rate ... and down 2 buy ins!!

It is very difficult to make laydowns since it means we 'surrender', 'give up' or 'quit' the competition. But focus on your goal and what distracts you from your goals at the table and these spots will become easier. Previously you didn't realize these spots were even occurring since you didn't recognize them. Now that you do, you need to allow yourself to react much the same way as you do PF to a 4-bet. Sure you don't want to become 'easy' and allow the table to raise you 'every' River since they know you will fold, but ...

I look at poker a bit like tennis. You have games (hands), sets (orbits) and matches (sessions). The dealer holds serve but once the ball is in play you attack your opponents weaknesses and react to each result. But you are not there to win the 'most' games, you are there to win the match. And we need to create spots where we win the games with most value. In order to do that, you need chips in front of you. Value them!! I still tend to 'pay' for information once in awhile, but I keep my focus on my reads and move on trying to leave the emotion of it behind ... next hand 0-0, your serve. If your opponent shows bluff, then thank him (mentally) and move on to the next hand.

I am somewhat critical of some here about the 'no brainer' spots to gii or call down in live poker v internet poker. It's hard to know what balance you need between what you should do automatically and where you 'allow' your heart to take over ... but that's what makes this such an exciting game. GL

I didn't want to expand too much on my online issue and make my post even longer and just blurted something out. There are several reasons I don't play online.

If I explain in detail, it will go for pages. I'll try to explain as succinctly as possible.

First, I can't concentrate on players when they are just names on a screen. It's more entertaining to me facing the real person and assigning a play to a face than a screen name. (Not that I ever assigned anything remotely competent on those days anyways). I just don't think I can concentrate online.

But, I actually don't mind trying it again. First time it was bankrolled through freerolls and I never played cash games then. Only the free tournament and SnG's from the money I win. Never made a deposit. I am willing to deposit $50 and try 1c/2c NLHE. However the biggest issue is my significant other really doesn't want me to do that. She knows I'll be spending most of my free time with that. I am a type A personality in many ways, and If I am learning something I do that every waking moment, every second I get. For instance for the last three months, all I did was to study poker.

I only play poker for fun but my aim is to get as best as possible. Definitely become a winning $1/2 NLHE player.

There are local casino's but we've never been there. We just don't fancy walking into a casino just to gamble. We enjoy Vegas for all it has to offer and not just gambling (granted this time we pretty much gambled 75% of the time as it has been several years). We will be going at least three times this year (already booked). Will continue to go at least that often each year.

I know many say they can't concentrate on live play as it is so much slower. But I find live play extremely entertaining and online play not so much. But now that I know how to observe and analyze, online play could be interesting as well. I've got to convince my wife.

P.S Which online Poker site allows USA players and yet doesn't allow HUD or any such tracking devices ? I don't have to withdraw money easily. If it's not legal I am fine with getting gifts as rewards or something like that.

I've heard of this book. But as the only mental aspect I was aware was going on tilt and I am pretty much immune to that, never took a second look. If you think it will b e useful for this issue, I am willing to buy it.

It sounds like it's a series of quizzes too. So, will a used book be not useful?

P.S: Talking about remembering just screen names. I know I've greatly benefitted from your and the previous players milestone posts. But for the life of me, I can't recall which articles you guy's each wrote specifically (I know one of you wrote a series of three or four articles recently and the other on board texture etc, I believe). However if you spoke to me face to face on the same topics, I'll never forget who educated me on what.

I don't think online is rigged. I've explained a little about my problems with online play above.

I know online play will teach me more in being able to analyze my game form the stored data. It will be beneficial.

If I know anything, I know I am making lots and lots of mistakes and not even be aware of it. What irks me are the mistakes I am making that I really shouldn't be making.

I've made more mistakes than the ones I mentioned here that I am aware of. But, unfortunately I know I also made many mistakes I am not aware of, but through online play and analysis I could possibly discover some of these which live play may never reveal. But, for a start, if I can at least stop making mistakes that I shouldn't. It will help.

I think I know of some reasons players may think online play is rigged. All of them faulty of course. But just knowing my own learning process and my evolution of poker understanding I can see at various levels, my faulty understanding of poker may lead to that conclusion. In other words, poker even in real life at times go like it's rigged, but its poker.

There are a *lot* of players in the same boat. Don't beat yourself up about it. Just dust yourself up and get back on the horse. Joe Montana threw 3 interceptions in the "The Catch" game before the game-winning TD to Dwight Clark. All anyone remembers is The Catch. It's not how you start, it's how you finish - and you can't finish if you don't keep trying .

You are the second one to mention "The mental game of poker". I will get that and read it again and again and again and again.

A lot of what you say hits too close to home.

However, I am kind of confused with your tennis analogy. I would not say my aim is not to win each point but rather the whole match at all. In poker, I want to make the best positive EV play for each and every action. I will never do a negative EV move now for the greater good (I am not at that level at all). I don't need any info from any player in any situation bad enough to make a -EV play. I am not at a level to know which negative EV play will result in a better EV play down the road to win the whole match.

I am not happy to think of poker as a balance between the analytical brain and the heart. I need to be at a complete robotic level and not get my heart wrapped up on this.

On a related note, maybe you answered this already and I missed it: What is your total live bankroll?

I took $1200 to Vegas this time. I will have $2000 for my next trip (a longer 3-4 day trip)

I even made the horrible mistake of trying to bluff a fish out of his hands. I know, I know, obviously that means I am the bigger fish of the two.

This guy truly thinks any face card is gold. He raises any two broadways. He has absolutely no understanding of position. Limps in a lot, raise any two face cards and limps in with AA and KK. When he limps in and it is raised to him, he will call 90% of the time (I mean limp $3 and call a $12-$15 raise). Likes to talk a bit. Mentioned he doesn't play a predictable game (I think him slow playing AA is what he thinks makes his raises and calls unpredictable). His game is 90% predictable. He even preloads his action. Not just folding, but if he's going to raise preflop, his hands are already on the red chips. He will fold to a C-bet, but obviously over values when he hits the flop (he plays any face card). Has folded at times to a turn bet (have no idea what he had, but from the body language which seems to be not acting at all, one could tell they were all easy folds).

Anyhow. I tried a 3 barrel bluff on this guy after I had raised pre-flop and he did one of his limp calls again. I knew he had the top pair with weak kicker and the idiot in me never put all this info together. The board was in no way scary enough for him to think I have a monster (Non paired, no flush or straight board). If he is putting an opponent on anything at all, it would be a top pair with a better kicker. But I know he doesn't analyze anything like that to even remotely have a chance to fold a top pair when there is no flush on the board.

What did I do?, three barrel bluff at this guy...yeah he had just a 10 kicker (which I already knew...a weak kicker), but everything about the board and the player should have told me my play was the fishier of the two. Yeah! I became the bigger fish on that hand. I never bluffed too much though, this was the only exception. Of course C-bet bluff a lot at right spots which was very effective.

As he plays lots of hands and raises any two broadways (he bitches and bitches how he never hits these amazing cards he gets....he was bitching about not hitting QJ and shows it to me like they were aces). Anyway, as he raises his weak holdings, and if there were a caller or two, it was easy to squeeze. He only looks at the amount raised not the amount in the pot. So with two callers to his pre-flop raise and a pot of $39, he will fold to a slightly larger bet the than the pot. Many did....but I never capitalized on this and only squeezed with my better holdings. I should have squeezed all night long.

Sorry for boring others with all these stories. Anyhow, poker is bloody interesting... I need to get better at it.

One of the things recommended in Tendler's book is the use of a poker journal. You can write all kinds of things in it, but what might be useful for you is to list your mistakes. After a couple of sessions where you write "Made a bad call when I knew I was beat" in the journal, you'll be more disciplined at the table, because you've identified a mistake you keep making. Next time you're in the situation where you normally make a bad call, you'll stop and think "I'm not going to write that in the journal again." You'll fold and write "I made a great hero-fold" instead, and finish the day much happier with your play.

AMF
That's a good idea. This should help.

I am planning to Join Bovada and play their lowest stakes (.02/.05). I'll have a $50 bankroll. Bovada reveals all the hole cards after 24 hrs., I am thinking this should help me with the learning process. Confirm whether I made the right decision and to post here.

Bovada has anonymous tables, so can't keep track of player tendency. This is a good thing for me as it mimics live tables.

I am planning to play ABC poker unless I have strong evidence to need balanced poker (Need to learn all it's nuances)

Now that I have done some preliminary reading, I have to say, even though I dont think internet poker is rigged, it certainly has some major issues.

There is clear evidence of bots and collusion. Multiple instances where the poker sites ignore such issues. I know many believe poker sites self police these things, but I find that extremely naïve. Also, multiple instances of poker sites giving hazzle only when someone wants to withdraw funds.

I know in real life there could be collusion. Much easier online. I know for sure I'm not playing against bots. Pay out is super easy.

So yeah! I really can't blame those regs.

I guess you found the Internet Poker forum.

I'd estimate that roughly 95% of the threads with titles like "Bovada froze my account and won't pay my winnings" were started by cheaters/colluders, who only got caught when their cashout request automatically triggered a review of their gaming history. It's very rare for the starter of one of those threads to be entirely innocent of any wrongdoing.

Cheating definitely happens on every site, and likely always will, but respectable sites do police the games, and cheats get banned. Provided they don't play on dodgy sites (like Lock Poker, which recently shut down at last) law-abiding winning players usually have no trouble cashing out their winnings.

You guessed right

I also got the hunch many of the complainers are not entirely innocent. But, in some instances the poker sites "catch" these cheaters when they want to withdraw their funds, not when they deposit, eventhough they had the same information.

Also, when cheaters are caught, the players who lost to them still don't get any where close to the amounts they lost (or even confiscated by poker sites). So, at the end ONLY the honest players lose. It is NEVER the poker sites. There's nothing a cheater can do that is financially detrimental to the poker sites. If it is, it won't exist the next day.

Lock Poker finally actually shut down????

uhhhh... where are you going to get evidence of cheating if they haven't deposited, which is necessary to play on the site?

Prove this please.

They have deposited. I am saying when they made the deposit the poker sites didn't have any issues. However when they went to withdraw their funds, then all of a sudden the poker company found out they were not legit for some reason or other. This with no additional evidence than everything they had when the player made the initial deposit (or could have chosen to do so). Now, if they are truly after scammers, why not try to catch them when they actually make the deposit.

Here is just a recent thread on this http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...thing-1525764/

Here is a thread on the second claim of mine
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-view-1474198/

Poker site not doing much inspite of proof
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-view-1474198/

Of course there's lockpoker

P.S: I really don't want to deal with this too much...I decided to read the Internet forum prior to making my first deposit. These were eye openers for me, and being a beginner forum, thought I'd share.

It's not all gloom and doom, hardly...but no bed of roses either...that's all....If it mean anything I still made my deposit.

Do you not understand what a poker site's evidence of cheating is? It's not lurking in members-only chatrooms, listening out for people discussing their plans. It's unusual patterns and results in the hands which are played on their site. You can't ban cheaters before they deposit because there is no reason to believe that they are cheaters. This obviously changes at the point of withdrawal.

That makes sense, but unfortunately that has nothing to do with what I posted. I guess you didn't check that link
P.S: It's about this guy who made a depoist from either a banned IP address or something like that. They only had an issue with that when he went to withdraw it.

Ah, understood. To be fair most of the threads in IP are started by either cheaters or impatient idiots.

Regarding the first thread, to be honest the guy's been thick enough to sign up to a poker site on a public network at his workplace, he deserves some hassle.

As for the latter, Party isn't a very good site.

He signed up using a credit card given to him by his boss... who is a known and previously banned colluder. And they evidently colluded again. You don't run up from $400 to $23,000 in a matter of weeks without cheating ldo.

Bovada apparently didn't realise he was cheating until he requested the cashout. But what are they supposed to do - suspend every account that has a winning session?
The security team looks for "suspicious activity". Requesting a $23,000 cashout after a $400 deposit is what I'd call suspicious.

If the latest posts in the thread are to be believed, Bovada has started redistributing seized funds to the victims, in much the same way Pokerstars does.