hoping people can help. i have played reasonable amount of O8 in the past. so i am at least comfortable with low only concepts.

here's what confuses me,

it seems like in some games, getting a straight hurts your low. now your worst hand is a straight...... but in other games, the straight doesn't play (not sure techically if it's the rules or if it's just assumed you won't play it). same with flushes, pairs and beyond.

is there any reference or pattern as to which games this is the case? i believe this is correct. i could be wrong.

other things (combo of comments and questions),

i'm assuming there are no low games where 2 low nut cards (like an A or 2 depending on the game) help you..... the ranks of low cards must be unique

O8 only 8 and below count..... true for stud-8?......... i'm assuming that's where the 8 comes from.. and must be unique ranks i'm pretty sure.

very technical question: what happens in a low only game (pairs/straights/flushes don't play) if both players left don't have 5 unique ranked cards... very hypothetical, but what happens if both players have full houses? i realize the example is ludicrious but just looking to see how the rules work. and i find extreme examples often illuminate things nicely

i see Ray Zee posts here.... i might buy his H/L book...... p.s. i do know some games are ace low and others 2 low (not sure what 2-7 and a-5 actually means in these games.. but i can google that i think)

my main question is which games penalize a low hand for having a pair and which don't?

I'm no mixed game expert, but to kick things off a little bit for you ...

1) My understanding is that only in Razz does a straight hurt you when establishing the 'worst' hand. For the best example, if you had a 'steel wheel' (A2345 all of one suit) you would almost be a lock for both the high and low in O8 and Stud 8, but it would be one of the worst possible hands in Razz.

2) The '8' means that all five cards must be 8 or lower to have a valid low.

3) 2-7 is called that because the best possible hand is 23457r, which is also called 'the wheel' in this game. 23467 is called a 'number 2' since it's the 2nd nuts. I'm not sure what a 'number 5 or 5' would consist of.

4) Pairs, flushes and full houses are 'not good' in any low game

5) I don't understand your '2 nut low card' comment .. sorry. Unless you mean having two Aces or two deuces at the same time? No, that would be considered a pair and 'no good'. This is very important in O8 since your low can be counterfeit by the Board having the same card rank come out.

6) In low games, the worst hand still wins ... even if it's the worst full house. It's only in split pot games that you worry about a (or no) Player having a qualifying low hand. So in Razz 22345 beats 23345 (higher pair) but both hands lose to 89TJK (king high).

Split pot games, like O8 and Big O, take a whole other mind set since you might have the best high or low, but if you tie with another Player they can take 75% of the pot should they take the other side of the pot. GL

Straights only hurt you in 2-7 and London lowball (if that's still played anywhere)

Games with a low qualifier penalize a low hand for having a pair because you must have a qualifying low hand, which usually means making an unpaired hand.

Omaha eight or better and stud eight or better have a qualifer. You must have a five-card hand of eight unpaired cards that are eight or lower. In razz (seven-card stud lowball), if you end up with a pair in your lowest five-card hand, you still beat someone with a higher pair because there must be a winner. Similarly, seven card stud high low can be played with no qualifier and a bad low hand still wins the low half of the pot so long as it is still the best low.

lo games where wheel is not the nut low tend to have "2-7" in their name, most notably 2-7 single/triple draw. If not specified otherwise, usually a2345 will be the nut low

I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but in a low-only game there's obviously no qualifier.

In some games, straights and flushes play, in others they don't. But I don't think I've ever played a game where pairs didn't play?

If both players have a full house, the one with the better (or worse, depending on your viewpoint) wins the hand.

But you still have to differentiate between games where A2345 isn't the nut low because it's a straight that does play and games where aces are always high, making it 2345A and therefore A-high but not a straight.

Yes, we call that 2-7

Obviously, if you are in a casino, it is good to know the rules. But the rules are fairly standard, so that if you play O8 or Stud-8, or 2-7 or Razz in a casino the rules will vary across games, but most likely will be consistent in all casinos.

The biggest issue here comes up when you are playing in a home game, with dealer's choice. I have seen many a heated argument over the years, and it all comes from the definition of "low hand" and the fact that people have different definitions and they all think they are right.

Some people think of "low hand" as worst poker hand, and this is not necessarily the case. The best "low hand" is truly the "best" poker hand based on the particular rules for low. If you define the winning low as the worst poker hand, then you are playing that 75432 is the best hand, but it is not good if it is also a flush. If you define the winning low as the lowest hand based on unpaired ranks, then 5432A is the lowest hand, and clearly a straight is irrelevant, and by extension a flush also is irrelevant. But I have also played in games where 6432A is the best low, because a straight would be bad but an ace can be considered low. In all cases, an unpaired hand five card hand is going to be lower than a paired five card hand (let's not worry about straights or flushes right now), but a pair does not penalize you except that a paired 5 card hand won't qualify for low in games that have a qualifier.

What about AA234 against 22345? I have played with people who could consider an ace low, but that a pair of aces is always high - and I have played with people who say a pair of aces is the lowest pair and therefore beats any other pair for low.

Just to throw a real monkey wrench out there, many years ago I played a lot of wild card games - and A2345 was not as good as A234W, which was not as good as A23WW. We essentially considered the wild cards to be like a 0. You can see how someone new to the game would be sure he couldn't lose with his wheel (A2345) and then be shocked to find out he wasn't even close. But I also played in a home game once where the host declared that wild cards could not count at all for low, and that led to a big argument.

So it is good that you are trying to figure it out here - but just keep in mind that in home games you really need to have clarification before you start as to what constitutes the best low hand, and whether or not any specific things will make the hand higher than you think. If you don't have a standard for all games, then when the dealer calls the game they need to clarify the low.

thank you so much everyone for the info

to clarify the question(s)........

in what low games (and low ends of split games) is A2345 (or 2 low in other games) an automatic winner? (could be tied for winner) and in what games does your opponent say "hey that's a straight.......... my 24567 beats a straight for low value"?.. i understand there are many games but i'm thinking it's families of games.

i have mass confusion on one answer......... assuming that in a certain game that having the wheel straight will negate your winning with low hand, is that true for flush, pair, two pair, 3 of a kind etc.?...... i would assumed for sure yes, but one comment suggests "no".... of course it's easy for everyone (myself most all to get confused)

that is a great point to learn the local rules..... if i play dealer's choice WSOP tourney or some low game mix WSOP, it's not too much work to find out the rules............

thanks again...... this seems classic situation where there's genuine uncertainty and bad info out there at same time.. i can imagine massive fights at home games.

p.s. i said 2nd ace "penalizes" you.... i meant someone says "hey, you aren't low hand, you have a pair of aces". SEVERE PENALTY ... of course, having a 2nd ace indirectly penalizes as it contributes zip to a low hand.

ok, here's my stupid confusion... and i think it's clear now.

i am playing X low game where i have 7 cards to make a 5 card hand (the 7 cards can come any way.. draw, flop shared, streets etc.)

so i play A3456 as low and have the best hand...... my opponent can't say "hey, you have a 7 amongst your 7 cards, you have a straight 7-high"....... it seems like the whole straight, flush and pair could penalize you on your 5 card presented at showdown hand. BUT it is impossible to have low hand and pair in that 5 card hand..

i think that clarifies most stuff for me..... it seems like different games do have different conventions as to whether your wheel straight negates your nut low....... but conventions to a large degree as things you must learn in general and at the table you sit at.....

being repetitive but i can see massive problems

THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN

Just like in high games your hand is the best combination of five cards from your hand and community cards, except in Omaha where there’s the additional stipulation that you must use exactly two cards from your hand. In 2-7 where straights and flushes count:

2235JJK you have 235JK

KKKK445 you have KK445

2s3s4s5s6h7s8h you have 23467, 23456 is a straight and 23457 is a spade flush.

thanks.......my confusion was much different and deeper idea....... i thought that if you have 7 cards and they contain a pair of aces that it would negate an A2346 low. but it seems like it's only if a good high hand like a straight or flush is in your presented low 5 card hand does it sometimes (game dependent) kill your low. but as mentioned by someone earlier, can't have a low hand and a pair in 5 cards

and i assume if your A2345 plays as a straight, you can still play A2346 or A2347 if you have the cards to do so.....

basically my confusion was in presenting 5 cards as your hand vs. the 7 cards you possess.

In almost any poker situation I know, if you are looking for a 5 card hand, it doesn't matter how many cards you actually hold. You could have 5,6,7,8,9 or more cards - the ones that you use are simply the 5 that you want to use. It doesn't matter what those cards are if you aren't using them in your hand.

However, going back to dealer's choice games, there are situations where there can be a bit of controversy over this . A hand like Ah2h3h4h5c Qc8h would play a wheel for low and an A high flush for high. But some people use a rule that you must use the same 5 cards for high that you do for low, meaning you would have a wheel for both high and low. If you want the flush for high then you only have an 8432A for low. I think this is nonsense, but that doesn't matter if this is the rule they use. so again you need to clarify BEFORE a hand plays out.

And, as long as there is all this hi/low talk, I know one person who insists on calling games "Hi or Low", as compared to Hi/low. What he means is that you can win high or you can win low, but you are not allowed to win both ways. I find it particularly stupid, because the only real way to make much money in split pot games is to scoop, and he takes away that possibility. But that is the great thing about dealer's choice - people get to call the games the way they want them.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of 7CS (regardless of whether hi, lo, it HiLo)

You are trying, as in all poker games, to make the BEST 5 CARD HAND. The the 2 cards you do not use for that purpose are 100% irrelevant.

In HiLo options, you can use a different 5 card combination for the low than the one you use for high (in most split pot games these days, the low has a qualifier (8 or better, for example). And in these games, the A plays both Hi and Lo.