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Flopping bottom two Flopping bottom two

02-18-2016 , 11:21 PM
What are y'all's thoughts about how to play a hand such as, say 24s on the button, and the flop comes k24 rainbow, say with none of your suit (no back door flush draw. (Just trying to make the scenario more concrete.)) Further, we'll say it was checked around to you and you made it $6 playing 200nl and SB folds, BB calls. I tend to just try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible unless I fill up. Villain needs board to pair.... But not with a 2 or 4! The math actually doesn't change if villain has over pair vs. top pair (as far as his odds of improving). In both cases he has 5 outs on turn and 8 on river (if turn is a blank). You're about a 3:1 favorite from river.

If you just check your cbet, you're usually able to get away from the hand if the river does pair the board, counterfeiting your bottom two. On the other hand, you ARE letting him draw for free.

I'd classify myself as an intermediate player, trying to improve and would appreciate any advice from sharks!
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02-19-2016 , 11:34 AM
I usually fold pre, but if I played it, I'm definitely c-betting a K42 flop HU in position, and I'm quite happy to take it down immediately, as this is a vulnerable hand that often gets counterfeited if all the cards come out.
Bet smallish on all turn cards apart from kings, and also bet safe rivers. You can check back the scarier ones (e.g. if the turn and river complete some straights or backdoor flushes, or paired the board and didn't give you a boat). I'm not playing for stacks, and the turn and river would be bet-folds. If you're not comfortable playing hands that generally flop very weakly, fold pre.
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02-19-2016 , 11:47 AM
I don't think the suitedness and connectedness of 42s is enough to overcome the lack of high card power. I'd fold preflop unless the blinds are really really tight preflop.
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02-19-2016 , 01:02 PM
I go for 3 streets of value with 2 pair, unless the board develops particularly unfavourably.
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02-19-2016 , 06:17 PM
if u are afraid to bet 2 pair then fold pf
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02-21-2016 , 02:48 AM
just think of it as it just barely beats top pair. so if the play looks like he has top pair, value bet him as such.
when his hand develops better you hand is now trash.
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02-21-2016 , 07:39 AM
You should be betting three streets very often.

What hand do you expect to be beaten by on the flop? 44/22 and if villain calls wide preflop maybe some K2s and K4s. Not very many combos at all.

Obviously this will change as the board develops.
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02-21-2016 , 12:43 PM
Intermediate poker is all about level 2 thinking. What do you think villain has? He called a pre-flop raise from the BB, and checked a K42 board. What percentage of the time do you think he has a king? If you think he has a king, you have to bet. If you think he doesn't have a king, then you're going to want to bet some of the time and check some of the time, depending on how often you think villain will bluff on the turn. The more likely you think he is to bluff, the more often you should check.

Without any reads, I'd bet here and hope he has a K. If he doesn't, you're probably not going to be winning much anyway.
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02-21-2016 , 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mat the Gambler
Intermediate poker is all about level 2 thinking. What do you think villain has? He called a pre-flop raise from the BB, and checked a K42 board. What percentage of the time do you think he has a king? If you think he has a king, you have to bet. If you think he doesn't have a king, then you're going to want to bet some of the time and check some of the time, depending on how often you think villain will bluff on the turn. The more likely you think he is to bluff, the more often you should check.

Without any reads, I'd bet here and hope he has a K. If he doesn't, you're probably not going to be winning much anyway.
This is why auto-cbetting 100% used to be the way to go. The range for calling a (min)raise from the BB vs BTN is probably the widest calling range in the entire game at any single point during a hand and therefor it will not do well on a dry K42 flop.

Nowadays more people understand that if you just checkfold when you don't have a king or anything that comes close button can just cbet 100% of the time and print money.

The average hand strength on this flop is just very weak and if you're cbetting this flop a very high percentage of the time (which you should I think) then bottom two is a great hand to start betting for balance.
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02-22-2016 , 03:27 PM
I wrote my post wrong. I meant the 24 hand is about a 3:1 Fav from flop if villain has top pair or over pair.
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02-22-2016 , 03:31 PM
this is a hand to play to make money on it. it is a big money winner for you as long as you can play it well on those times you get outdrawn.
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02-22-2016 , 03:34 PM
as said it is great to pick off a 4th street bluff but that does give out a free card so you need to be pretty certain he will be a better on 4th with nothing.
i still like betting the flop as you get called by pairs in his hand or a checked king and sometimes an ace.
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