[QUOTE=fees;4965807]Hi,



I stumbled on to 2p2 playing 18 months ago playing .1/.25 FR on bodog. Today I play 5/10-25/50 on ftp and stars. So you know whats possible, now lets talk about whats required. If I knew what I knew now I could have expedited that process into easily under a year. The key is using your time efficently and becoming consumed with the game.


[QUOTE=fees;4965807]

I asked this question on another thread, but was wondering Fees opinion on whether success like he had in such a short amount of time is possible playing 6 max PLO AND NL? Or in order to excel quickly, is it mandatory to dedicate all of your time for poker to one form and to "being consumed" with only that form?

Thanks

fees, do you seriously think that even at the microlimits (under NL100), people should play only 4 tables and not use a hud?

I can totally understand how you want to start getting into the habit/practice, but my POV is that every single person should want to get out of the microstakes as quickly as possible, and to do that you multitable and use a hud (multitable since that makes you more money obviously, and a HUD b/c that just makes life multitabling so much easier). And once you reach the small stakes+ (>NL100) you can only play 4 tables and use a HUD.

Agree/disagree? Thoughts?

fees, how come some of the biggest winners online, such as KRANTZ to whitelime to CTS to sbrugby, etc. all use HUD's?

This is from watching their videos btw.

aba said he doesnt use hud when he plays normal games. Cole might but i doubt he uses it too much, also he doesn't use anything beyond VPIP and doesnt place much faith it in. duno anything about krantz and whitelime. FWIW far more HSNLers dont use it than use it afaik

[QUOTE=TheFeed;5344785][QUOTE=fees;4965807]Hi,



I stumbled on to 2p2 playing 18 months ago playing .1/.25 FR on bodog. Today I play 5/10-25/50 on ftp and stars. So you know whats possible, now lets talk about whats required. If I knew what I knew now I could have expedited that process into easily under a year. The key is using your time efficently and becoming consumed with the game.


Specialize, play one game, it will take up too much time learning both. Just focus on NLH 6m

Disagree, you can't just play with a hud and multi table at 25 and 50NL then all of the sudden play SSNL and expect to win. You have to experience playing less tables without a hud and focus on player behavior. TBH SSNL is just as easy and using your logic you could just keep doing it, but it won't make you any better.

But you can gradually advance in stakes and reduce your use of HUD. I, too, think one should advance past micros ASAP. You can't learn how to beat a thinking player at the micros. Also I think multitabling makes you get a feel of the ranges, probabilities and especially variance much quicker than fewtabling.

I doubt HUD and multitabling is preventing people from improving. The connection is probably rather that people who don't have the motivation or capability to improve to high stakes level will resort to HUD and multitabling.

After reading this thread I watched a vid on a coaching site and one of the first hands illustrated fees' point about using a HUD very nicely. With top pair, top kicker and a deep-stacked passive fish to his left, the coach bet two streets and got called pretty quickly. He then said that busted draws are a big part of his range and if I check to him on the river, he can bet and we can call. Look at his stats, his AF is 4 so he will bet.

Now, it seemed pretty straight-forward that the guy would bet made hands and check behind with weak hands but the stats produced a different line.

I have also tried playing without a HUD and realised how much cleaner the screen is (a load of stats are so distracting - when you play without, you realise how distracting they are), along with really being able to notice action now, rather than looking at stats. Seemed good but I might need to play shorter sessions to remain optimal, as the concentration level has suddenly gone up without the crutch of stats to lean on.

very interesting. thanks!

So i have read the first couple of pages and the last page (i'm at work and can't read the whole thing). Just curious, what is HUD? heads up something?

And just for the records, since coming back to poker, things were not exactly working out (I wasn't neither winning much nor losing much) till i read Fee's and Tien's posts as well as others here on 2+2 and followed exactly what they said and it is paying off for me. I don't have pokertracker, i don't keep track of how many hands i played or how much i'm making per hour. what matters for me (like everyone else) is how much i'm making and that shows that these guys know what their stuff and i salute them for that

Now did fee (or anyone else) post anything about the table image and post flop (and other streets) strategies? I am now very comfortable when it comes to pre flop betting according to my position but sometimes i find myself in an awkward situations on other streets and my game definitely needs some help there.

HUD = Heads Up Display

It's overlays Villains' stats on the table from your database (Pokertracker or whatnot) as you play.

So after reading this Ive been only 2-4 tabling the last week or so and been mixing in some plo. Today I was hungover and decided to 12 table a lower limit and I couldnt believe how boring it was. It seemed playing that many tables was a total grind compared to gambling on a few which is tons of fun now.

Hi fees,

I highly appreciate that you're giving back so much to the beginners, I've read your e-book and it has really taken my game to the next level.

This guide is also very good, but I'm curious about a subject you didn't mention here or in your book: bankroll management. What are your thoughts/suggestions on moving up, taking shots, how many buyins needed, etc.?

This is totally subjective.. and like all things in poker it has some basic parameters, but nothing is "correct".

Lets completely throw the rule of 20 BI out the window.

As the money you have on a poker site because more and more important (meaning it is the majority of your wealth or you could potentially need it for... buying a house or car) you're bankroll should increase in relation to the stakes you play. I would say like 40 buyins for uNL, 50 for SSNL, and 60 for 400NL. After this level you can figure it out. As the money becomes less and less important (not that you should be careless about it because you can simply reload) your roll can get smaller and smaller. If you were a 200NL regular and cashed out and decided to move down to 50, TBH you could get away with $500 or 10 BI if you were that far ahead of the curve, simply because your edge is great and its a low variance game. As you become more concerned with the money at hand (meaning the swings up or down truly affect you) your roll (in terms of BI) should increase, and visa versa.

Two guidelines or maybe... *rules* I would say would be:

1. Its impossible to have "too big" of a roll for any game.
2. If you can't beat a game, you shouldn't play it, no matter what your roll. If you can't beat 200NL avoid the rational "well I'll lose for a while but if I want to moveup I have to take these losses and learn" Thats not to say you shouldn't shot take, but just because your bankroll might be ready doesn't mean you are. If you aren't totally comfortable about your game and the next level, set a goal for yourself and once you get there take a shot. FWIW the best idea is just having a coach sweat your first couple move up sessions, or even a friend.


This help?

Hi fees,

I am currently at work and am browsing 2+2 thanks to the +EV proxy I just set up. Thank you for letting me not waste my time all day, your post is great and I am going to try your method. (I am a 50nl grinder with a 70BI roll, I once had a 35BI downer(at nl100 continued at nl50) and since then I have become the nittiest when it comes to BRM).

I easily beat nl50 but I spew at nl100, and the reason for that I think is I erly too muc on my HUD: I see a 6 river AF on an average board and I hold second pair and I am thinking OMG he has to be bluffing, he can never hav x or y, little did I know he could valuebet thin.

It's funny, 3 days ago I emailed FTP to ask them to increase my table limit to 12, and now I see that was probably the worst decision I have ever made.


However, I have a question about tweaking your method a little. The huge benefit of a HUD is that it helps you to instadistinguish fish from the rest. So why not use the HUD with only the VPIP/PFR/samplesize, to save you some trouble and being able to pinpoint reads faster.

Also, how many hands did you play at each limit ? Did you post some graphs of your journey to robusto somewhere?


Thanks for the input !

Hey,

Thats not a bad idea, in fact I used to do that to just figure out who the regs were and then turn it off to see how they played. Thats perfectly fine if you use it to table select. If you aren't using a HUD to table select I would expect you do something else (looking at table VPIP doesn't count). This kind of got left out, so thanks for bringing it up=D

As far as hands I played a lot at 50, not so many at 100, decent amount at 200, ton of 400, not too much 600.

No graph=P, maybe if I do a well I'll post it.

Fees, first of all I would like to say that you have been incredibly helpful to the community and your material is awesome. I have come very far with the help of your beginner's 'book' and articles like these. One thing that I did want to comment about was how you say that when you're doing well, you should continue pushing your advantage and playing.

Usually I set general guidelines for conditions that will end a session. For example, if I happen to lose X # of buyins, if I play for 2-2.5 hours without a break, if I make X # of buyins, etc. This has helped me to keep progressing upwards at a good pace.

I was just wondering what kind of 'system' you use. I have found that if you play for long enough, you will inevitably spew off all of your winnings from being mentally tired. When/where do you decide to call it a session?

Once again, thanks for the competent advice as I have linked many 10+ tablers to this article

Hey,

Um tbh I think your doing it backwards.. or just from the wrong viewpoint. I take poker month by month and decide how much I can/want to play that month. I try and set aside the times during the day where I have the best focus (typically before I workout b/c I am then tired). I play as long as possible during these times (meaning as look as I am thinking well, as soon as I get bored/tired/lose focus I quit). Sometimes I quit in 5 min, sometimes 2 hours, all up to how I feel, how I tilt.

When you have free time just start playing until you have something better to do or until your decisions become poor. Don't quit when your winning just to book the win, keep playing.

Also just to emphasize, don't play a certain number of hours or hands, play until you have a reason to stop.

Yea, I see what you're saying then. I don't follow these conditions 100% anymore. As of recently - like this last week, I have been doing pretty much what you're saying. I have played until I felt that it was time to stop for whatever reason (I had made a few bad plays recently, or I wasn't thinking as clearly/etc).

I appreciate the advice, I was just wondering how you moderated yourself in terms of when it is a good time to stop. It sounds like a mix of discipline and feel which seems to be a good way to go.

Thanks again.

Thanks, these are very good guidelines. Especially the part about not moving up if you can't beat the game. I've been grinding 50NL for 3 months with a mediocre winrate, but RB helped to get a 30BI roll for 100NL, so I took a shot. I obviously got owned pretty hard, so right now I'm working on trying to crush 50NL (6-7 PTBB) and then move up. Thanks again for the help, your posts are very motivating!

I had some trouble finding this... and its one hell of an informative thread
so heres my BUMP!!! hopefully others will come

If you build it... they will come

Great thread why did everything die like the study group? and this thread.

bump

anyone experienced improvements following fees rules

hey fees, congrats on the tourney score

the best piece of advice I took from your post was this:

1. If you are just starting out play 2 tables. After you become adept at ANALYZING hands move up to three. If you cannot analyze hands at 2 tables go to one table. After you master three tables move to four. DO NOT MOVE BEYOND 4.

I've had some success with poker but nothing spectacular. I've realized that the weak point in my game is being adept at hand reading. I'm OK at it... but in order to learn and apply new concepts you need to be a solid hand reader. Hand reading is the 'base' every good poker has.

I was wondering if you could discuss your early poker education and what you did specifically to improve your hand reading. I know it was probably as simple as paying good attention to the game but I'm also willing to bet that you'd be able to verbally explain the thought processes you practiced in a way that would be beneficial to people willing to learn.

Thanks for your time!

I have been 4 tabling uNL for a while now. I know it hurts my game and I play much better at 2 tables, but I just want to move up so bad. After reading your post I have decided to cut back to 2. Playing without a HUD scares the life out of me though, but I am willing to give it a try, I think at 2 tables there is less need for it anyway.

If this becomes a trend HEM and PT sales ppl will be looking for you!