ty

fees,

when you sit down at a typical NL table, what % of players would you already have extensive notes on?

I love fees, hell even gave him a shoutout in my cr interview. Also he helped teach me coming up. But i disagree with a few of his points, primarily the hud. But im sure he knows what hes talking about, to each his own.

Post of the year for beginner forum. You give me hope fees.

in my normal games i have reads on almost each player.. % of regs prb like 80%, fish like 40% ? maybe I duno numbers are rough estimates

Interesting point about the HUD, just started out cashgames (after grinding SSMTT for hours and hours) NL50, I think I'll quit using my HUD for a few k hands and see how it goes // changes my play!

Cheers, will report back after that experiment

300+ posts and my best contribution is to this forum is a link .. you all need to read the sticky in the micro forum :-P

I'm finding this concept of dropping the use of a HUD interesting. I've read Fees' strategy guide and have a great deal of respect for him, so maybe I'll give it a try and see what happens. I think the real issue is beyond the use or non-use of a HUD though. (LDO ) It's about paying attention, being aware, and making use of that information to your advantage. I'm as guilty as anybody of that too, so this is a good kick in the rear to stay vigilant.

Regarding the example used above about AF, I think this really hits on the key point. Using a HUD has become such a crutch that we tend to get lazy and not be as observant as we should be. Then, we rely on a single stat like AF to make our decision. An AF of 5 for a player with an 8% VP$P is way different than for a player with a 60% VP$P. Analyzing the big picture helps us put the pieces of the puzzle together. I use a HUD, and the notes I usually take are more along the lines of betting patterns, so I use my notes and the HUD together to determine the best course of action. However, Fees is obviously light years ahead of me, so I'm certainly going to pay attention to what he has to say and give it a try.

Anyone else drop the use of their HUD recently? I'd like to get some feedback on this.

Thanks for helping out the guys down here in the subterranean levels.
T

Fees I wish to understand why you dont post this thread in the study group that focusses on your book. If poeple were studying something I had produced I certainly would acknowledge their interest in my work and happily contribute.
Again I am puzzled.

Good post Fees. If I could add one thing that you haven't mentioned that has slowed my progression through the limits to a standstill, it is...

WITHDRAWING POKER MONEY

Unfortunately I had no other source of income for a while, and poker was paying for my rent, but at NL50, you can't expect to build a roll and move up when you're taking $500 out per month for rent.

Try as hard as you can to not touch your BR.

I think making reads, using notes and being observant is nuts, but I'll follow fees advice and I won't be using HUD in next two or three months just to get better at making reads.

I thought this would be an interesting hand to post to display why passive players aren't always valuebetting when they bet.

Full Tilt Poker Game #7106449835: Table Hughes (deep hu) - $5/$10 - No Limit Hold'em - 6:26:45 ET - 2008/07/06
RealMonies posts the small blind of $5
Starr5522 posts the big blind of $10
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RealMonies [Kh 6d]
RealMonies raises to $30
Starr5522 calls $20
*** FLOP *** [As 6h 2h]
Starr5522 bets $30
RealMonies calls $30
*** TURN *** [As 6h 2h] [7s]
Starr5522 bets $80
RealMonies calls $80
*** RIVER *** [As 6h 2h 7s] [Js]
Starr5522 bets $360, and is all in
RealMonies calls $360
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Starr5522 shows [3s 4d] Ace Jack high
RealMonies shows [Kh 6d] a pair of Sixes
RealMonies wins the pot ($999.50) with a pair of Sixes
Starr5522 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1,000 | Rake $0.50
Board: [As 6h 2h 7s Js]
Seat 1: RealMonies (small blind) showed [Kh 6d] and won ($999.50) with a pair of Sixes
Seat 2: Starr5522 (big blind) showed [3s 4d] and lost with Ace Jack high


Him being passive means he can't valuebet thinly, or rather that on the flop he can have an Ace close to never unless its A6 or A2 (two pair), so hes representing the complete nuts or air, far more often air because he doesn't vbet thing and is SUPER polarized. You can't deduce this from HUD stats, its just simply understanding player types in relation to board texture and their line.

Also expanding on not using a HUD, a lot of strat posts I see are like ok so he plays 30/10/1, no history, what do i do?

Not using a HUD will force your hand in a way and put you in a position where you have to be focused on your opponents, what they show down, how they play, gameflow, etc so that you have actual reads and not some fairly arbitrary numbers.

Great post Fees - ty for this (and the 6-max guide, really helped my play) - it's great that you're giving something back!

Completely agree regarding HUD - when I started out, I was diligent in taking notes on all players (fish & regs), trying to identify their betting patterns / leaks. Since using the HUD, I've found that I have been getting lazy & relying on the HUD to make my decisions.

One quick question though - what sort of notes do you use?

Typically, I'll make notes on players' positional ranges pre & post flop, their tendencies when playing draws (for example, does the player c/c, b/c or c/r flush draws when OOP), whether they overvalue certain hands (TPTK etc) and what situations they will stack off in.

I also use notes to combat tilt, but that's another story (I find berating fish to be very therapeutic if done in the notes - don't want to berate them in chat and scare them off or make them tighten up).

Do you have any suggestions for the type of things to look at when taking notes?

i dont understand. if hes betting when hes usually passive, how can u not give him credit for an ace?. and how can u call down with third or fourth pair?

i dont understand the line "far more often air because he doesn't vbet thing and is SUPER polarized." did you mean value bet thin?, and what do you mean by super polarized.

a further explanation would be appreciated.

thankyou

also where is this study group for your book?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=238875

Him being passive means he isnt capable of valuebetting one pair here, if he could he wouldn't be passive, does that make sense?

btw, who is that chick in your avatar? kinda cute // too young obv?


sry for OT lol

Books & Publications....Fees however is not involved in the group for whatever reason.

It's Leslie, french singer, she got good tunes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgcl9...eature=related

He's firing 3 bullets though. Would he 3bet AJ oop?
What do you do if he checks the river?

so he has to call 20 in a 40 pot. his pot odds are 2:1 or 33%. i guess he could have any 2 napkins and call. fine. but it seems a contradiction to say that hes passive so when hes betting its either for value or hes bluffing. i just wouldnt think that a passive player has bluffing in his DNA. i mean doesnt that go against the very nature of being passive? and how do distinguish when hes bluffing or vbetting? he COULD have any two cards right. he could have 2 pair, it doesnt have to have A6 it could be 62 right? but it cant be 62 because its not the nuts?

so you say he doesnt have 1 pair because he wouldnt bet that, 2 pair is unlikey given the board. so eighter hes got the nuts or not. so to win the pot hes going to bluff all his chips? and if does have the nuts hes going to bet all his chips. and more often then not hes got nothing. if thats true seems like passivity is a losing strategy once you figure that out.

thats not really a question i guess more a restatement i suppose. but i do have a question for you. are there any postflop stats that you look at that are suggestive of this line passive players take. that help you decide when to call down. or would it be better just to call down whenever he bets, because either hes got air or the nuts and more often air? so its +ev to just call in the long run.?

Wow I coulda swore his avatar was from a 3-6 Mafia video...

I only 8 table, but ya, I don't use any software. I actually had another 25 buy in day last week. Funny thing is, it was the day after fees and I did a sweat session together.