Ok.


How many tables do you usually play?


If you dropped down to small stakes (1/2 or .5/1) how many tables would you have to be playing before you'd use a HUD? What if you wanted to just grind those levels 20 hours a week and maybe play like 10 hours a week with fewer tables to try to expediate learning?





I dunno, I like my HUD......I mean I watch players and try to figure out more about them....But yea like you said I have a larger player pool and at the moment the HUD can help me. I mean....I like to think you can use a HUD without it completely becoming a crutch and limiting your upward movement.




And if you want to be really honest than most people in this forum probably will never reach the levels you are playing but may able to do decent at small stakes games where a HUD can possibly be helpful.



I'm just right now thinking it's a balancing act where it can help you, but you also need to be able to notice a lot more subtle things and be able to notice the spots where different numbers occur that make up the AVERAGES in your HUD......but it's a tool that in the right spots can be helpful....thoiugh possibly once you reach a certain level you can throw it out as it's a tool that really isn't so helpful anymore......like you would throw away a flat head screwdriver if companies stopped making that kind of screw for the type of furniture that you started to be able to afford.




I dunno....I feel like I have started rambling.

I normally play 2-6 depending on HU/game quality, level, (if im playing 1020 i like never play more than 4) etc. I should mention I rarely play above 4.

I wouldn't use a HUD at those games, also playing 20 hrs with 8 tables and 10 with 4 tables is far less efficient use of your time (in terms of longterm EV, moving up ETC) than like 15 hours of 4 tables. Even if you play less tables and thus sacrifice a lower hourly EV, longterm you will do best or better (in terms of hourly as you will move up).

I'm not saying HUD will destroy you, you can very well use it and win big, I'm saying the best way to get better and moveup is playing 4 tables without a hud. You CAN use it and make a more optimal decision, however I think without using it you will understand players better and make far more better isolated decisions and game theory decisions.

I hope this answers everything feel free if I'm not clear.

You answer a lot...and I'm not that surprised by most of it. It's just a bit tough to cut back on tables so much when you need money to pay Rent/Health Insurance/Car Insurance/Food/Cable/Power/(Girlfriend Cost)/Wanting Money to Invest,etc. + even when you know you're moving back into your parent's house soon so a lot of the costs will soon be close to eliminated BUT you're gonna have to pay law school tuition. (And I do feel the HUD does help me to play a greater # of tables. I won't argue too much about it stunting my long term growth....it may or may not be.......but unfortunately I need money now.)


I'm hoping out of law school I can beat 5-10....at least 2-4/3-6....and then I'll see.




But yea....I'll be reading pretty much everything you post here and thanks for it. I know I PM'd you about coaching before and there may be a day I do it again and try to take you up on it....hopefully I can get good enough that the coaching would benefit me a lot and hopefully it won't take tooo long.

On the subject of the HUD, I recently started using the HUD and initially I found it dominated my decision making process far too much and made me go against my read. It took me a few days to realize this and I lost some money in the process, but ah well you live and you learn. Once I had adjusted back to using the statistics as an aide to my normal read and decision making process I was more or less back on the path to success.

The HUD might say a player is a donkey, but a donkey can still turn up with a good hand or hit a flop hard.

I thought your guide was an enlightening read fees, I hope to one day have a large enough roll to put some of it into practice. I was particularly amused by the advice "Ball till you fall", it is now my unofficial mantra when I'm playing.

How many of the sections in your strat guide Fees would you consider unapplicable at the lower stakes (primarly uNL)? I mean, you lose so much FE at uNL it seems like a fair few of these concepts you describe should be kept until you hit SSNL.

Any comments?

Excellent thread fees. this is the info i needed as i usually 9-table 10NL, but still lack the ability to play good observant, well thought-out poker. This is just what i needed to realise that Multitabling micros wont make me an awesome player, i obviously need to slow down and learn more than the basics to get anywhere. When do you suggest that i shud ever have to 4+table? Also do you think it is really possible to get from 10NL to 600NL in such a small amount of time?

It's obviously possible....Fees did it in a couple years. Is it easy? Heeeellllll no.

Not to divert the thread (Thanks a lot for the post and the 6-max guide, great stuff Fees), but I'm going to be a 1L in law school in a month. Did you get to play much poker while there Lego? I'm hoping I can play a few hours a day or something to help pay for it, but I hear the studying requirements/hrs tend to be brutal, esp for 1L.

Dunno. I start law school August 20th.....so yea...I start in a month too.

Oh ok, gotcha. Prepare for reduced poker hours . gl.

Basically there's no answer to this, let's say u 2table 6max, this will give u about 220 hands an hour, there will be days when u feel up for grinding 12 hours straight, and there can be days where u're rly not in the mood to grind a hand at all, and when u're not in the mood u rly shouldn't play. IMO

I don't think so but its been a while since I read it. Basically at every level below 200 you need to play a very solid striaght forward ABC game. Really thing is like the core of you as a player you need to learn this then move forward.

Don't play more than 4 ever?


Also it most certainly is if poker just consumes you. If you have a girl+job+poker it will take longer for sure. I didn't have any responsibilities for like 6-7 months of this time and it really helped me moveup quick.

I don't know how to do this. I have HM but other than it keeping track of my wins/losses and the HUD I don't know how to use it as you suggest. Can you help get started to analyzing ? I play $100nl. I normally play fr. I just got your guide to learn how to play 6-max and will be reading it real soon.

Thanks for a great thread and for sharing your knowledge.

HM is a pain you have to play with it to figure out how to review sessions, it was alot easier with pt2... i hate the new programs cuz they restrict it so much.

I have not bought HM... just been using it for the free trial... I have pt also.. (free trial) I will buy whatever will help me improve as a player... I dont have a problem with either one.... just dont know how to use them optimally..

If you could help me learn to review on pt3... thats what i will be using from today on

btw.. whatever is the easiest to use, for a poker software dummy like myself would be the best direction that I could go.

I just learned about these programs when I also "stumbled" upon 2+2 about 3 months ago.

Poker does consume me alot, further down the road i want to become a half decent MSNL player but obv thats gonna take alot of half work, determination etc etc from where im at atm. Just curious to what levels you play, stats, bb/100 and hours a week you play?

I was just pondering a few weeks ago the very point that fees made in this post about over reliance on a hud. I was wondering how to improve my game and i realised that focusing on reads and putting my opponents on a hand range/maximising equity out of that range by looking at their betting sizes and betting patterns etc were very poor and were simply:

This guy has an agression factor of 5, he is bluffing..i call. Or this guy has an agression factor of 0.4 he is not bluffing, i fold.

I love my hud but i think better than not using one at all, is to probably use it sometimes or sometimes only use it on half of your tables and not on the other half, to discourage over reliance on it. In the micros, a hud is invaluable at instantly picking out fishy tables and exploiting donks as quick as possible.

Good post and GREAT 6-max guide btw fees. when i get back into 6max i will definately use that as a starting point.

this is wrong, if you didn't use the hud you would probably put together why pretty quickly, (just trying 2 tease your brain) =P

Had a session last night (ok, only at NL2) with no HUD and 4 tables max. I gotta tell ya, it felt like it really clicked a lot more. Was taking notes on players and using them against them rather than relying on the HUD. Started picking up betting patterns and had a good instinct as to when they would fold. I generally just felt a lot more focused.

Thank you Fees for your infinite wisdom into how to make us all better poker players and not HUD robots.

Fees,

I remember one thread in BBV where nl400 grinder posted a brag about winning 10k in a day and he said that he hadn't used poker tracker and PAH combo. Instead he was 12-18 tabling and using his notes. His username is snowbank, u should know him. I think that's definitely the most inspiring example how effective notes with reads can be.
Also please visit my thread in this forum called "My plan for going robusto." Here is the link.

Yeah I know snowbank hes an awesome dude, sick at poker. The only problem is he plays way too many tables

fees.. when you are analyzing your play.. do you try to keep your numbers at certain levels ??? if you notice that some numbers may be too low, do you make sure that you get them up and vice versa ??

Not really, I just observe numbers and kind of take note of what they are but I never care what they are. I focus more on hands, how they were played and if its the best way to play the hand, if I misplayed it, or if there is a better line.