I sometimes wonder if I should bet out when someone in LP flats my bet pre. I dont think there is a fold to donk-bet stat so I ussually choose between check raising or leading depending on what I feel is best but wanted to know if there are "standard" theories about this. I did read some of the donkbetting threads but I dont think its donkbetting if you are the PFR by definition correct?

Hero AcQs flop Qc10h2s (basically a dry flop and you hit)

Hero AcQs flop Kc10h2s (basically a dry flop and you miss, BUT hits possible range based on EP range )

Hero AcQs flop Jh10h3s (basically a wet flop and you miss everything)

those are just some examples to get it going but there are others like if you hit a set? (I know Doyle says "go on an lead into that sucker and he gon reraise ya")
I'll ask more if the thread gets enough love and there is interest in the topic. (cuz I have a lot of questions )

We can go on all day I guess so what do you guys think?

Yeh it's not a donkbet. Not sure which threads you've read but if you're reading them thinking this is a donkbet you're going to end up getting the wrong idea and misapplying stuff.

As for the actual question, you should be cbetting a decent amount of the time. You're obviously correct though in that this depends on the flop texture, and you should be cbetting less oop.

From what I understand a donk bet is when you lead out, when out of pos into the preflop raiser.

(1) You're right that it's not actually called a donk bet if you were the pre-flop raiser. A donk bet bet happens when a player who called a raise pre-flop bets into the pre-flop raiser. When you raise pre-flop and then bet the flop, it's called a continuation bet, or a c-bet. Most huds do include a fold to c-bet stat and that will help a lot when deciding if you should bet. If your opponent doesn't fold much, you should obviously be bluffing less.

(2) As far as when to c-bet, there are a bunch of useful threads on this topic if you use the search function, but the general rules are to bet more frequently with air on dry flops than on wet ones, bet more frequently when you are heads up than when you are facing multiple opponents, and bet more frequently if there are a bunch of turn cards that could improve your hand and give you an excuse to keep betting (for example, maybe you could pick up backdoor straight or flush draws).

Correct.

Right, I see that even if you are OOP it is a legit c-bet. thanks. It jus feels like the C-bet is different if you are OOP for some reason. but my concern is ppl (at least the regs or semi-good ppl) like to "float" me when I am OOP. and say my preflop range in EP is fairly tight AQ+,22+, (56s-J10s rarely, depending on table flow). I usually do lead out and hate folding the likely hand. do I just have to embrace being OOP with a good hand and muck it?

Pretty much. You sort of have to be more aggressive when you have the initiative OOP, exactly because people like to float IP.

Playing out of position against good players is definitely hard. All you can really do is make sure that your overall range is strong, and that you are willing to fire a 2nd barrel on the turn if you thing a villain is floating you super light. You might feel like this is spewy, but in some ways it's even spewier to fire one barrell and never be capable of running multi street bluffs...

Oh, and I wanted to add that you need to distinguish between good thinking players who are floating because they know they can use their positional advantage to put you into tough spots and fishier players who are calling simply because they have a pair or a draw and they always call with a pair or a draw. Don't try to bluff the 2nd type of player too often.

Since you are making a continuation bet, the stat you need is the fold to c-bet %. Don't worry too much about being floated and having to check-fold the turn with ace high. If you led out for 60% of pot, you only need villain to fold 37.5% of the time for your bet to break even. Most villains will fold to your c-bet much more often than that. Continuation bets are therefore the most common (semi-)bluff, and also the most profitable.
Sometimes, of course villains will call and you actually connected, so you take them to value town. Easy game.

If you're as tight as you say you are, competent players are not going to float you, because they expect you to actually have a hand. Floating is done vs looser players who you expect to be able to bluff because their hands are too weak. But not TOO loose, otherwise they're stations who just call bottom pair anyway.

Yes, and no. In some spots floating vs a narrow range of made hands is possible, and very tight players have a very narrow range. What matters is whether the player is capable of laying down on later streets and whether the conditions are potentially right for persuading them to do so.

I float in position against tight players pretty often. If they opened in early position and I called with 88, then I can still win the pot if I don't hit a set. If the flop is Q72 or J95, the nit will make his c-bet, and then often give up on the turn if he has AK. (If villain's EP range is TT+ AQ+, then "no pair" hands like AK and AQ make up slightly more than half of his range). If he barrels, I credit him with TPTK or an overpair, but if he's a one-and-done merchant, like many nits, then it's easy to take the pot on the turn. Indeed, you don't even need a pocket pair to do so. If a player's turn c-bet is lower than 50%, you can profitably float with ATC.

This seems a bit paradoxical, since a nit's handrange should be tight enough that he's able to double barrel often. I dont expect a 9/7 nit to simply miss every flop.

Yeah, you'd think a 9/7 would be continuing pretty much all the time since they have a very strong hand going in to the flop, wouldn't you? And so they should. But some nits are really nitty and give up too easily - I see them quite often below 10NL. It's very easy to get such a supernit off QQ- if a K or A flops - you don't actually have to have a K or A in your hand to do that! And some players do just fold to almost any turn bet if they don't have the nuts - they don't think about what is likely, just that you might have one of the hands that beats them. Such tendencies are super-easy to exploit - you pick up a lot of small pots from them, and as soon as they want to make it a bigger pot, you fold unless you have the nuts or close.

Not so fast, tiger.

1) Just because someone isn't betting the turn, doesn't mean they are folding.
2) If someone IS always check-folding when he doesn't bet, he can barrel at a surprisingly high frequency and we can still profit.

Doing the EV for a float is pretty trivial - when villain bets full pot we need to win 33% of the time to breakeven, so if he check-folds the turn more than 33% of the time we are golden. So a turn cbet as high as 66% we can profitably float with ATC as long as he never check-calls or check-raises. Conversely, if villain cbets the turn 40% but is check-calling half the time and check-folding half the time then we will lose (assuming no equity) 60% of the time when he bets, and 20% of the time when he check-calls.

Built a quick turn float EV calculator. All seems to work, but I'm too tired just now to add in an option for calculating EV when we have some pot equity.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wk2b01sYjlxYWc

dang all of this c-bet math is pretty tough to use in real-time (but very inspiring for my c-bet game lol). I kinda loosely memorized the cbet-break even points so I can quickly know how often I need to cbet vs a villain.

Something I have been recently doing is c-betting OOP and then check-raising the turn. gets expensive as a bluff but gets money in good if i have it. IDK if its long term profitable but it seems to have worked pretty well so far (run-good?). thoughts on this? would we do the math the same as we do the cbet%?

@zumby did you say you MADE a EV calculator? you are sick (or does everyone know how to do that/standard practice for 2+2 ppl) I do my calculations with paper and pencil lol

@artysmokes I agree that bad nits are easy to float and I float them all the time as they give up easily so that is why I feel like with my tight UTG range, I am getting exploited maybe? (but then again its 10NL, I seen some showdowns where the "floater will have K9 vs my AK and beat me on a (Q96 x x) or something and idk if i'm getting owned or if he just flopped mid-pair and is calling with it all the way).