i´m more or less an online pro right now (although officially still studying and obv also wanting to finish it), and just wanted to say that your guidelines are not specifically designed for the live grind only, whether intented or not (i´m sure though you are very aware of this yourself ...)

tried out every wrong path until i more or less did your described path , and it takes a ****load of time, and much more discipline that i would have ever imagined etc. great read. but unfortunately, at first i think no one will follow your proposed right path but only will do so after the shots failed

Very nice thread DGi, as always.

Great thread as always! 5*

Just wanted to thank everyone for the nice comments about my post, glad it was good enough to make the "Best of BQ" Sticky

I feel honored to be listed with the likes DiamondDog, CMAR, LEGO, WCG, and TDA among others

So just wanted to say thanks for the kind words guys...

DGI......

This isn't only the "Best of BQ", is the best of internet's poker
You help a lot and selflessly to new players and that is very, very, very rare

Congratulations and thank you very much

Awesome post/thread, always enjoy reading anything you write even though my ADD tends to not let me finish an entire post in one sitting

+1 for wanting to hear your personal story, if you're willing to share.

As someone who has had an extensive career within the chess world, this statement is incredibly accurate.

nj job dgi

i respect that you are always giving back to 2p2

gl

Great post. Can't believe I read the entire thing.

mod note: I have moved the last 5 posts to here -

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...hread-1323281/

^Placing a link to this thread in the OP might be a good idea as well

This is a "Great Post"

Best post I have ever read on 2+2. As a live pro, I selfishly wish this post didn't exist as it means >0 fewer wanna be pros going busto in the games I play. As part of the poker community and as a member of 2+2, I'm proud to see something like this exist. Thank you for your time and effort, so very valuable.

Yes, I said it was a quibble, but since you mentioned it... that's not the kind of variance/luck I was talking about. If you're 1400 and I'm 1300, then you're clearly the more skillful player, yet I'm going to beat you 1 time out of 3 in the long run. (Sounds kinda like a flush draw with 2 cards to come.) If we play a match of first to 5 wins, on any given match I can and sometimes will beat you, though you're the favorite.

Again, thanks for the post.

If I'm 1500 and you're 1300 will you beat me 1 in 6? 1 in 9?

Just an off topic question (but DGI deserves bumps for this post anyway)

Yeah let's derail an awesome thread with bull*** chess arguments

Thanks so much for this post. Will be coming over it in more and more detail over the coming week

I have always planned poker to be a fun, social hobby/supplement to my income. After reading your OP Dgi I feel even stronger about this. I fit many of your prerequisites for becoming a pro, but I score high on desire and low on discipline. The truth is I felt tired after just reading your post!

I have read and reread and reread books and posts. I have discussed hands with poker friends in depth. I have filled up note pads with scribbles and math calculations. And it feels like I am only scratching the surface.

I wish you great success. Thank you so much for your contributions.

HHH.

Should be 1 in 4 IIRC. Expectencies are listed in a chart on the page below. Kind of interesting because it actually mirrors the sort of winrates or winning sessions you might achieve based on your skill level in poker, except there is no such rating in poker, although I think you could come up with one. I suppose it's a good thing the donkeys don't know how bad they are.....

http://www.mark-weeks.com/aboutcom/aa04l04.htm

What you're talking about is variance, but not really "mathematical" luck, since it's not caused by purely random events, but rather by human decisions.

The variance is more of a "life" variance type, e.g. the 1 time in 5 you'll beat the 1400 may be because he was tired or distracted for x or y reason.

No, the results are the same random results if both players are at their absolute sharpest. I'm not talking about getting lucky in any "life" way. Since humans can't solve the game of chess, many of the decisions they make have a high degree of randomness. As poker players trying to understand variance and probabilities, we should understand this phenomenon. You should consider the fundamental difference between a game like chess and a game like tic-tac-toe.

When the OP says to start playing by grinding 2NL and 5NL to build bankroll, is this full ring or 6-max ?

and should you be multi-tabling?

Most live games are 9 or 10 handed tables so FR is probably most applicable.

Play as many tables as you are comfortable playing while still focused on making the best decisions. More tables translates to more hands per hr and more experience gained.

+1

I meant full ring since that is what the live game is.

Also, the biggest benefit of online play is multi-tabling. Initially, you really only want to play 1 or 2 tables at the most while you are "learning". Once you get your sea legs and develop your game to the point where 80% - 90% of your play is automatic then you can SLOWLY start adding more tables in 1s and 2s. We are all different in our abilities to multi-table. But if I were to generalize, I would say that beginners should only play 1 to 2 tables probably for the first 10,000 hands then play it by ear adding a table here and a table there as their skill and understanding increases.

Lastly, learning is not only about playing hands but also WATCHING the table and your villains and trying to figure out all the stuff that's going on. You should be able to guess who has what, who is strong, who is probably going to win the hand, who is clueless, etc etc.

The more you play, the more you will "automate" certain thought processes and observations. Over time, paying attention to the correct actions will become second nature.

EDIT: As I said in my opening spiel, I'm NOT an online specialist. If I say anything that conflicts with standard micros online wisdom then disregard what I said. The only comment that I would stick by is that if you want to learn live play then that means playing full ring. Players that specialize in 6-max online tend to have a harder time converting to full ring live vs players that play FR online...