Let's say SB vs BB situation 10bb eff.

If BB is a fish who always call our shove. Is using the 10bb shoving chart still profitable?

If BB always call our shove, should we shove tighter than the 10bb shoving chart?

On the other hand, If BB fold 95% of the time to our shove. Why not shove wider than the 10bb shoving chart?

Thanks

The point of a shoving chart is that it doesn't care what villain is calling with. In both scenarios you mention you should shove wider than the chart suggests

A shoving chart is showing the equilibrium strategy. But if you can identify a tendency in your opponent, you can adjust the strategy to squeeze out an extra edge. But I wouldn't stray too far from the strategy because we don't have enough hands on the opponent to be sure of the reads. If the reads turns out to be wrong, we would be owning ourselves.

Assuming we are talking about the Nash shove charts, any game theory solution is designed to be indifferent to opponents counter strategy. What this means is that regardless of players tendency, this strategy represents the minimimu risk with the maximum potential gain.

It does not mean that this is the maximally exploitive solution. If an opponent is noticeably unbalanced, you should adjust for that leak. Taking the two extremes, if a player always folds to any raise, you should bet every single hand. If they call every single bet, you should play any hand that is better than 50% against ATC (anything better than Q7).

Game theory solutions balance exploitive vs exploitable. That means they are not the most profitable solutions in all cases.

The 10bb chart suggest shove 69.2% from SB 22+ A2s+ A2o+ K2s+ K2o+ Q2s+ Q2o+ J2s+ J6o+ T2s+ T7o+ 93s+ 96o+ 84s+ 86o+ 74s+ 76o 63s+ 53s+ 43s

How do we adjust the chart if BB is calling every shove? Should we shove tighter or looser?

43s, 53s+ 63s+ these hand has around 40% equity against random range. Should we adjust by folding these hand? Also hands like 76o, 74s+, 86o, 84s+, 96o+, 93s+...a lot more hands like Q2o.........all these hands have around 45% equity against random range. All these range is from the 10bb shoving chart. So should we adjust by folding all these hand which have below 50% equity against BB calling range?

We should adjust by shoving a tighter range right?

Also since there are dead money in the pot (Big blind, Small blind, Ante) we don't need 50%+ equity against BB calling range? even BB calling every shove.

SpewingIsMyMove answered that question in the post you quoted!

Here it is again:
The one thing he didn't account for is that one:
[QUOTEnexone]Also since there are dead money in the pot (Big blind, Small blind, Ante) we don't need 50%+ equity against BB calling range? even BB calling every shove.[/QUOTE]
You can do the math on that one and then adjust the range accordingly.

You can do the math on that one and then adjust the range accordingly.[/QUOTE]

How to do the math? I know how to do the math If we are the caller (like if we getting 2 to 1 we need 33% equity to call) How about the shover?

Assume villain always calls. His range is ATC. In that case, the math is basically the same as when you're calling a jam. Your required equity is just the amount you're risking (your shove) divided by the size of the final pot.

If you jam X bb to steal 1.5bb and villain is in the BB and always calls, he's calling (X-1)bb.
If you're on the button, the final pot will be 2X + 0.5bb, and you contributed X.
That means you need to win X/(2X +0.5).

e.g. if X = the size of your jam = 10bb total, the equity you require is 10/(20+0.5) = 48.8%

If you're in the SB, then you're risking 9.5bb into a final pot of 20bb, so you need 9.5/20 = 47.5% equity.

To get 47.5% equity vs ATC, the optimal range is 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J3s+,T6s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K2o+,Q3 o+,J6o+,T7o+,98o, which is 57.5% of hands, but it's a somewhat different range to the optimal "Nash" push range for 10bb (which is a different 56.5% if I remember correctly). When villain always calls, high cards generally have more value. If he calls optimally, then the hands he calls with are stronger than average, and you'll have better success jamming some of the lower suited connectors, since these do pretty well against Ax/Kx/Qx.

To use a very basic example, if villain calls shoves with Q5o or 86o, then you love getting it in with Q6o (dominating). But if he never calls with a worse queen than QT, you'd much rather jam 76s than Q6o, since 76s will be "two live cards".

Thanks Arty!

How do u get these optimal range against ATC?

If I not adjust to BB and still use the 10bb shoving chart, is it still +EV profitable against BB who call ATC?

Also, is the BB optimal calling range base on SB shoving range? Let's say if SB only shove with AA, why using the calling chart? the tighter SB shove, the tighter BB should call?

So all the optimal calling range is base on the shove range?
For example SB shove 30% of hands, what's the optimal calling range for BB?

Is there any book or software help with these thing?

See post #4 in this recent thread:https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...spins-1693744/
The worst hands in the "GTO" shoving range get the bulk of their EV from fold equity. If villain never folds, they will lose money, because you'll just be getting your money in as an underdog. You should therefore tighten up your jamming range vs someone that calls wider than "GTO", and also shift more towards high cards. (e.g. Don't jam T5s if villain calls with literally every Jx or better. Only shove T5s if villain will fold some better Tx and Jx and Qx. You're jamming T5s as a bluff after all. It makes no sense to jam it if villain won't fold better hands).
It's all based on range vs range equity and fold equity. The "Nash" push-fold charts are what you'd end up with if both players kept adjusting their ranges until they could no longer gain an edge. i.e. If someone folds too often, you should shove wider, but when he starts calling more often, the worst hands in your range start losing, so you tighten up, and then he tightens up and the process repeats and repeats until hero jams an unexploitable range and villain calls with a range that breaks even against it. If either player deviates, they are either leaving money on the table (e.g. not shoving hands that are +EV against someone that folds too often) or they could get exploited (not calling enough means they get blinded out of the game by a player that widens his jamming range).
Assuming 10bb starting stacks and BvB, that means the BB gets odds of 11 to 9 on a call. This means he requires 9/(11+9) = 9/20 = 45% equity to break even.
I don't have my push charts handy, but if the 30% shoving range looks like 22+, A2s+, K6s+, Q8s+, J9s+, T8s+, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, then using Equilab in the way described in the thread I linked to shows that the range of hands that all have a minimum of 45% equity vs that 30% range is 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A7o+, KJo+ (just 18.85% of hands). If the shoving range was a different 30%, then the +EV calling range would be slightly different. If villain only shoved AA, then the only hand that makes money against it is the other AA (because no other hand has >45% equity against that "range").
'Kill Everyone' is said to be good for this kind of thing. If you play HUSNGs, Mersenneary's old PDF is a useful (and free) strategy guide. There's also the old Pushbot Excel spreadsheet that might still be found via google.

Thanks for all the reply, it help me a lot!

"GTO" shoving range, you mean "Nash Equilibrium" push/fold chart right?

Even though the "GTO" shoving chart lose money in some hands like T5s against BB ATC because BB never fold.

Overall the "GTO" shoving chart should still be profitable and unexploitable? since its a "GTO" shoving chart.

I put "GTO" in quotes, because the real solution to short-stack poker is to use mixed strategies that involve minraising and limping as well as shoving, but YES, I meant the Nash charts. They are unexploitable in a strictly 'push or fold' game.
"GTO" and "unexploitable" do not mean the same as "most profitable", which is why you should adapt your play to exploit the tendencies of your opponent. i.e. Shove wider if he folds "too often", tighten up if he calls "too often". In most games, villains don't actually call as wide as the Nash charts indicate, so it's generally profitable to jam as per the charts. You can deviate from that if you have more of a skill edge against the villain though. After all, there's no need to make thin/breakeven shoves against someone that will spew in other ways. By jamming especially light into someone that calls a lot, you'll just increase your variance, sometimes unnecessarily.

With 10bb stack or less, we can limp and minrasing?

https://ibb.co/fSkKWR

If SB shove 100% of hand 10bb eff, what is the optimal range for BB to defence?

Am I do the math right? see the image link above

If SB shove 100% of hand and BB call 100% of hand, they should be even over the long run? ATC vs ATC 50% vs 50%.

Sorry for so many question...I have so many question in my mind lol...

Why would BB call ATC?

If SB shoves 100%, BB should call every hand that has at least 45% equity against that range.

Yes, but that makes things significantly more complicated.

When you've chosen 45% for the equity required, press the 'Calculate hand range' button.



You can then press the 'Take to main window' button if that helps you vizualize the range, which is 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 86s+, 76s, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J3o+, T6o+, 97o+, 87o (66.21% of hands).

What might be confusing is that if you run this range vs ATC, it has 55.36% equity, but the crucial point is that every hand in the range has at least 45% equity vs the ATC shover. (AA has a lot more than 45% equity, obviously, whereas the bottom of the range - J3o or 87o - have very close to 45%. They are marginal in the extreme.) It would be stupid to call with even worse hands like 72o or 32o, because these will win even less than 35% of the time. The BB can only call with hands that have enough equity to break even.

P.S. It's often hard for beginners to get their hands around this idea, as it's a bit counter-intuitive. At first it seems like "If villain is shoving ATC, then it should be break even to call with ATC", but it's not true. When someone shoves, they have two ways to win: by stealing the blinds, or by making the best hand when they get called. The caller can only win one way: by making the best hand, but he/she will only make the best hand the majority of the time if they have a stronger (tighter) range than the shover.
Hence, you can shove with wide ranges, but you usually have to call much tighter. In tournaments, most of your money is made from fold equity, which means the basic strategy in the end game is that you often shove to steal blinds, but (mostly) fold to shoves to stay alive.

Thanks Arty!

The SB vs BB situation is solved since there is a Push/Fold Nash Equilibrium chart.

How about other position? the early the position the more players act behind us, the harder to get the solution?

Is the UTG or BTN 10bb shoving chart "GTO" or "Nash"?
Or the range on the UTG 10bb chart just give you an idea what hands you should shove?

SnapShove suggest shove 14.3% from UTG for 10bb, which is 44+ A8s+, ATo+, K9s+, KQo, Q9s+ J9s+ T9s.

Is the above UTG 10bb shoving range "GTO"/ "Nash" and unexploitable?

Or the "GTO"/ "Nash" chart only apply to SB vs BB situation?

The push charts are only "solutions" to a pure push or fold game, where everyone else plays rationally. (i.e. if everyone had access to the same push charts, they would only call or reshove with hands that make money against the range they expect you to be jamming). The GTO play involves minraising and limping, as I mentioned previously.
In fact, the 'Nash' charts are only approximations of solutions to the push/fold game. With hands at the bottom of the shoving and calling ranges, mixed frequencies can add a tiny bit of EV. e.g. While a 10bb chart might indicate that T5s is a shove, but 84s and T4s are folds, a (marginally) better strategy might be to only jam T5s 70% of the time, shove 84% 20% of the time and T4s 10% of the time, or something like that.
None of this is necessary for a beginner to understand. You can do pretty well in the microstakes by playing exactly according to any of the push charts posted online or in books. You're not gonna make huge errors if you follow the charts supplied by Jennifear, FloatTheTurn or Snapshove. I'd recommend playing slightly tighter than them against fishy opponents (to reduce variance, where you can wait for more profitable hands), but you can't really go wrong by pushbotting like all the other regs.

Just bust out a $22 tournament and I'm not sure im doing right.

If V UTG shove 15bb and hero is on the BB with 10bb.

What calling chart we should use? Snapshove: You can call 7.2% of hands from BB against a 15 BB shove from UTG.

Snapshove: You can call 13.4% hands from BB against a 10 BB shove from UTG.

We only play 10bb eff but V UTG is shove 15bb...so which chart should we looking at? should we think V UTG only shove 10bb since we play 10bb eff? or 15bb?

He is not just shoving against you, he is shoving against the whole table

You should take a look which range UTG shoves (or is supposed to shove) 15BB deep from UTG. Then, since you are last to act, you can simply check how much equity your actual hand has vs. his range and how much equity you need to call off based on pot odds.

Im curious about this as well. What program do you use to make a call when utg shoves 15bb deep and you are in the BB?


I looked at pushfoldcharts but thats only for push or fold. I also use the free version of snapshove but there are limits to it. I also used floattheturn but it seems like all of these seem to have slight different push or fold?


Which is the best push/fold chart? I assume its snapshove? I dont mind paying whatever it is to buy the full version if i know thats the correct push/fold. Also i believe it tells you what to reshove and overcall with right? The thing is i like to stick to one chart so which of these would you suggest? The pushfoldcharts is not that good because its only for push or fold.. doesn't show what you should call 2 all ins with or what to reshove which i believe snapshove does? Thanks.



Also a few quick examples i like to use. Assuming UTG shoves 10bb from UTG.


Do you call or fold these hands


1. Pocket pairs - Are pairs as low as 55 a call? What about 33 or 22?


2. What about hands like AJo, KQ, J10s?


3. Ax. What is the minimum Ax you are suppose to call with. What about broadways like KJs or QJ or Q10? I assume these were folds but im thinking these might possibly be calls when you are in the BB? I like to know what hand you need minimum to call at each position as well.

Again, if you are in the BB, you don't need any software at all. Besides something trivial like Pokerstove to check the equity of a specific hand vs. a range and a calculator if you aren't good at math.

If UTG shoves and you are in the CO, there are additional considerations because you have 3 players left to act behind you. But from the BB, you can just check if your specific hand has enough equity against UTGs range or not.

If other players have 15bb+, then that is the effective stack pre-flop, and that dictates villain's range (which is naturally going to be pretty damn strong). Although you only have 10bb and you're in the BB, so your pot odds aren't as bad as they would have been if you had 15bb on the button, the profitable calling range will be somewhere in between what snapshove says for 10bb UTGvBB and 15bb UTGvBB. You can use Equilab, in the way previously demonstrated, to find out which hands should break even vs UTG's 15bb jamming range, although you should calculate the pot odds for a 10bb call.

As an aside, in multiplayer games, where everyone has a different stack size, it's impossible to have a "chart" for every possible pre-flop occurrence. You can use tools like SNGWizard, HRC, or ICMizer to do the maths for you though. Away from the table, I like running spots in ICMizer to find out the "optimal" calling ranges both in terms of chipEV and ICM, but I still make tons of mistakes in game, as does everyone apart from the high-stakes crushers. It's not at all easy to range some correctly, let alone have a great feel for which hands are profitable calls. With 10-15bb stacks, many hands are extremely close to breakeven, but sometimes a hand that I think is an "easy call" actually turns out to be a clear fold, due to some ranging or ICM factors I hadn't considered at the time. e.g. A competent villain might notice that both the blinds are very short and are therefore likely to call quite often. The competent player will therefore tighten/strengthen his shoving range... which means the blinds shouldn't call so often, because they'll lose. It takes hundreds of hours of study and practice to get a feel for the right play. Charts are only a guideline. They are great for helping you with shoving ranges, but calling ranges are much harder to work out imo.

I think the "GTO"/ "Nash" call range is only for SB vs BB situation?

If SB only shove AA, we can still profitable call with the "GTO"/ "Nash" chart because we gain so much money that SB is folding 99% of hands.

But If UTG only shove AA, how are we still profitable call with the "GTO"/ "Nash" chart?

So the "GTO"/ "Nash" call range is only apply to SB vs BB situation?