1/2 live cash game
action goes Ugt +2 raise to 8
mid position Raise to 18
fold to cut off who calls fold to Orginal raiser who calls. ( pot 54)

Mid Postion Held Kd Kh
Flop Ad -- 2h -- 6d

Check, mid bets 30 cutoff calls the guy who checked folds now heads up.
pot now 114

Turn is 9d
action goes get 40 followed by shove 105 ( pot now 259 )

What do you think cut off has ? I say AK, AQ, 22, 66 all possiable.
I dont think he shoves or even stays for turn with 34, 45.
IF mid position calls its 65 for about 4 to 1 pot odds.
Any Diamond or Black king is 11 outs as no way cut off played it like AA.
Mid Can not fold this spot right ? espeically not with just 50 behind.

Want to hear your comments on the way mid and cut off played this hand
what you think cut off has and if you call or fold.

Spolier of river card and what he held posted after a few comments
Thanks

Mid position needs to 3 bet larger preflop

Agree. Trade off whole table folds to 25

then 3 bet bluff wayyyyy more often to 25 till the table adjusts

Apart from what other's have said about the 3bet sizing pre:

Why is mid betting the flop?
There's not much in the way of draws that would still be in it on a 3-bet pre, and he's only folding out hands he has crushed and getting calls form stuff that has him utterly crushed.

Good point but i am guessing after 3 betting pre flop
checking the flop shows weakness and puts him in a position of not knowing where he stands ?

I would also like to hear what you guys think the cut off holds given the action described and what you think about the other questions in the OP.

Well, betting the kings pretty much turns them into a bluff on the flop.

In that situation (as mid) I would be thinking: Are there many hands I'm currently beating that I'm giving free cards which have good equity? Probably not. Pocket pairs have just 2 outs. There's not many flushdraws that UTG+2 raised with. Particularly since I hold Kd (blocking hands like KdQd and KdJd). Cutoff may have some smaller diamond connectors due to the tiny 3bet pre, so that's a bit of an issue, but cutoff might be coming along with all kinds of hands here so I wouldn't worry on the flop too much. Even if a third diamond comes in on the turn and someone starts betting (small) on a made flush I have outs to the nut flush redraw on the river.

Are there many hands (which I beat) I can start building a pot with that will pay me all 3 streets of value with an ace on the board? Also probably not. (QQ or JJ? The first one is a 'maybe' and the latter is already a hard 'probably not' since I 3bet pre with quite some players to act - which makes my range contain a lot of AK, AQ, and JJ+. And if I do bet flop, at this point, cutoff also doesn't know if UTG+2 holds an ace so it's very unlikely he'll plan to call down 3 streets with something like QQ against potentially 2 opponents.)

So my thinking as 'mid' would go something like this: I check because
a) I would want to keep the (future) bluffs in (suited connectors from cutoff that totally missed and just came along because of the tiny 3bet pre). I want him to have a chance to improve to a second best hand (eg JT or QJ that hit a T, Q or J on later streets). He might bet for "thin value" if I seem weak or he may start bluffing if I seem weak (with KK I'm calling down mostly unless cutoff and UTG+2 start locking horns with bets calls or even raises)

b) I want the hands that are worse than mine but have some value to stay in (the pocket pairs that didn't improve to a set). I 3bet pre which heavily suggest I have a strong range here. I want them to call a river bet to see if I'm bluffing with something like KQ or want them to start bluffing themselves at some point (perceiving I have something like TT or JJ that I might give up against pressure)

c) Most of all I want to keep the aces from betting too many streets (taking me to value town for three streets would be horrible)...and I think our opponents - especially UTG+2 - have a lot of AK, AQ and possibly even AJs in his range after a 3-bet pre. So does cutoff.

TL;DR: Checking for pot control would be my move and then calling down reasonable bets of one opponent ont turn and river (or betting turn/river for thin value if opponents stay passive).
I know. Nitty. Never said I was a good player.

Because of the Ace? Someone very good at poker once told me, "The other guy probably didn't want to see that ace any more than you did".

As to the questions:
Cutoff knows with high certainty mid didn't hit a flush on the turn (because the only cards that even remotely would fit mids line and hits a flush is KdQd). Cutoff can pretty much shove any set and small flush or AK with impunity against mids bet needing only to fear mid holding specifically KdQd or one of three combinations of AA.
Cutoff knows mid is getting too good of a price to lay anything else down that has reasonable showdown value (mid is getting odds to call. With 5.2:1 mid needs to win 16% of the time which he does against made sets (22%) and barely not against made flushes...and of course against all bluffs)

For 50 mid cannot fold - but as played put himself into a terrible spot because with the 3bet pre, bet on the flop and bet on the turn there is almost no chance cutoff is bluffing with the reraise on the turn for that amount. He must expect a call with any holding.

Against one guy I'd agree. But against two guys who didn't mind a 3bet? People like to play Ax.
KK has reasonable showdown value (and is a good bluffcatcher as well as being still able to extract some value from weaker holdings if everyone stays passive until the turn/river). I think it's too early to turn it into a bluff.

@antialias Didace has a point. When the guy in early position folded after the flop action came back to him He Was Not Holding an Ace and he defintely didnt have a set.

I guess one of the points here is That AS PLAYED the Mid Postion Guy almost has to call the turn jam with 11 outs and only 50 behind. Agreed ?
I also think that AS PLAYED the Late Postion guys jam looks like a possiable flush or a more likely Semi Bluff. To Me it looks like late Holds something like A Jd or A 10d. I think the guy in late poisition has a moderate strenght hand with some outs that are not clean outs.

True. But when mid bet on the flop he didn't know this and both ranges ogf Utg+2 and cutoff are ace-heavy. So the bet seems a bit reckless to me.

Yes, as played a call is OK. (But to make this clear: I think the hand was not played well by mid)


A (semi)bluff into someone who has 3bet pre and then bet flop and turn with little money behind? A (semi)bluff only has value when there is fold equity. I can see none here.
Consider with what he must have called before (a 3bet pre and a flop bet) to arrive with a semibluff on the turn: A backdoor flush draw - and even one without the possibility of holding the nut flush draw. Not likely.
Why would he jam these? Mid could - as played - very well hold AK or AQ and unlikely a bluff since he bet into two people on the flop.
With a possible flush on the board and mid still betting on the turn it's also very likely that if he has such holdings then the K or Q is a diamond against which AxTd or AxJd would be a 14:1 underdog(!)

@anitalius Ok. But You still have NOT stated what you ARE putting him on.
Secondly I would like to wait for another guy or two to respond before I tell you what he HAD.

ps the CO is Ace Heavy ? That position is for the most part a wide range position.
PS I DID tell you what he I thought he was holding to call all the bets before he jammed the turn. I told you WHAT i thought he held. So far YOU have NOT put him on 2 or 3 specific hands that would reflect the way he played it.

SO far we have only agreed on the pre flop 3 bet was to light.
That he is NOT chasing a gut shot and that as played the mid can't fold to the jam.

As played I could put him on suited connectors in diamonds, a lot of Ax holdings (favorite would be A6 or A2) or any set (as I mentioned in my third post).
I.e., unless he's a real spazz monkey, he should have something that has mid in really bad shape probably already on the flop but almost certainly on the turn.

The particular hand doesn't really matter - what matters is that while mid was putting money in the pot he was probably not holding the best hand (or at the very least not making his raises big enough to deny speculative/drawing hands correct odds to call)

@ant ok what do you think of his jam
On that board while holding
A clubs 4 spades.
Imo a terriable jam

As I explained in a previous post: he can jam that with impunity because he almost 100% knows mid doesn't beat it but will be forced to pay off anyways.
He's shoving for value and mid obliges. (I don't know if there is any history here but if mid playes similarly in other hands then cutoff might have noticed that mid just mindlessly c-bets)

With Ac4s he's blocking a lot of AK/AQ holdings which mid would 3bet pre. KdQd is the only flushs hand he needs to fear. Everything else he beats so his aim is certainly to get all the money in the pot ASAP.

We beg to differ he went all in vs a posiable made flush with no outs and he had 1 pair with a WEAK Kicker and was pretty wreckless for my 2 cents.
Given the action mid could have easily held AK AQ AJ A10 KQ suited and even 66 was possiable given a pre flop 3 bet that was THERE but NOT a big one.
it gets worse when you consider mid was basically tight agressive the whole game.

66 seems unlikely as his own 3bet would have priced him out of setmining (unless people are playing super deep) and also opened the chance that UTG+2 4bets which would force mid to fold needlessly. (Also while setmining you want to have 1-2 others come along - not throw people out of the pot with 3bets)

From cutoffs POV any other Ace holding is blocked (and a 3bet with AT or AJ seems unlikely against an early position raise as these hands are too often dominated) and KQd is just one specific hand.
That leaves as the hands that beat cutoff:
AA (one combination)
KQd (one combination)
AK (8 combinations)
and AQ (8 combinations)
Total of 18 combinations

On the other hand 3bets with TT (6), JJ (6), QQ (6) , KK(6), and any other KQs (15) are possible.
Total of 39 combinations

So cutoff is better than 2:1 on beating mids hand. Even if you discount the KQo hands he's still more than happy to get all the money in.

15 combos on KQ ? do you really think someone is 3 betting pre flop with KQ off NOT likely.
THAT brings it down to 18 combs vs 24 not 39.
IF you take into acount that a 3 bet with AJ suited is possiable its now 19 vs 24.
If you then take into account he is shoving vs a possiable made flush with no outs
And based on the the action of the hand It is quite likely he is far behind.
In my Book he shoved a weak spot and got lucky.
Thanks for your 2 cents you did make sone valid points but I think you were short of spot on

If you count KQd then you must also count the other suited KQ variants as 3 bets. If you discount KQd then mid has no made flushes at all so all cutoffs flushes are live.

In any case I'd be happy to shove here as cutoff with A4 - even without any fold equity (and against something like suited KQ - other than KQd - cutoff actually might have fold equity because there's no reasonable hand they beat because cutoff has zero bluffs here)