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04-11-2020 , 12:11 PM
I was listening to a podcast that stated you will flop 2PR/better about as often as you will flop straight/flush draws. I have been on an extended streak of not flopping 2PR or sets so maybe it's just recency bias that makes me doubt the accuracy of that statement. So my first question is do statistics show that statement to be true?

The statement was used to show a simple way to balance your check raising range with an adequate number of bluffs to value hands. Do you think this is a valid concept?

What factors do you consider when deciding to check raise a drawing hand? A value hand?
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04-11-2020 , 01:43 PM
whether or not thats true, not saying you NEVER raise draws, but in general there are better ways to play them, as solvers have shown us.

kind of brought the point and reasonings up, here.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/6...s-utg-1766579/
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04-11-2020 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Big Stack
I was listening to a podcast that stated you will flop 2PR/better about as often as you will flop straight/flush draws.
You have to specify your hand. Hitting a flush with suited cards (>0) is more likely than hitting it with unsuited cards (=0).

I calculated probs. for middle suited connectors like 78s and got hitting a straight or flush draw was about 20.7% (no backdoor) while hitting two pair or better was 5.6%.

I think Flopzilla can provide results for all sorts of hands.
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04-11-2020 , 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Big Stack
I was listening to a podcast that stated you will flop 2PR/better about as often as you will flop straight/flush draws. I have been on an extended streak of not flopping 2PR or sets so maybe it's just recency bias that makes me doubt the accuracy of that statement. So my first question is do statistics show that statement to be true?
It obviously depends upon the ranges that see the flop, and what the flop looks like, but the basic answer is NO, you don't flop 2pr+ about as often as draws. A typical BB defending range will obviously contain more unmade hands and draws than monster made hands.

e.g. Suppose you defended the BB with the following range:
88-22, A9s-A6s, A4s-A2s, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, AJo-A9o, KTo+, QTo+, J9o+, T9o

On a flop of Jh8s5s, that range has precisely 6 combos of sets (88, 55), and only two combos of two pairs (J8s).
In terms of draws, the BB's range has 24 combos of OESDs/DBBs (T9s, 97s, 76s, T9o).
There are also 24 gutshots (QTs-Q9s, 97s, QTo).
Since it was a two-tone flop, there are also a bunch of flush draws (19, albeit some already counted in the OESDs/gutter).

If I add up all those combos, we get to:
6 monster hands.
58 draws with 4 or more outs.
There is no debate there. Draws outweigh strong made hands in a ratio of 58:6.

So let's look at a different "less drawy" flop, like Td2s6c.
On this rainbow board, the BB range I mentioned at the top has 6 sets (66/22) and no combos of two pairs.

There are no flush draws on that rainbow, and also no OESDs, but there are still 16 gutshots (98s, 97s, 87s, 54s) in BB's range.

So even on this dryish flop, the BB has more than twice as many draws in comparison to monsters. (A ratio of 16:6)

---
All that said, you should often check-raise your strongest hands, and you should "balance" them by also check-raising some draws. Depending on the board texture, it's often wise to check-raise with more draws than made hands, because it's not very profitable to play draws passively OOP. But you clearly can't check-raise ALL your draws on every flop. You'd have way too much "air" in your raising range.
To get a semblance of balance, I usually raise a few of my best draws (e.g. monster combo draws), and a few of the weakest (e.g. gutshots with BDFDs), and check-call with the middling ones, especially if they have showdown value (e.g. nut flush draws or 2 overs and a gutshot, since these are often already winning, or can take the lead by binking top pair). The strat really depends upon the situation, what I'm trying to accomplish, and how likely I think villain is to fold to a check-raise.
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FWIW, I used Equilab to count the made hands and draws on those flops. Flopzilla is an alternative. I think Combonator does something similar.
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04-11-2020 , 07:20 PM
I'd sell my ass to flop 2P+ as much as I flop draws (as long as it doesn't apply to others too lol).
If that's really what the said in the podcast though, drop it, they're full of ****.
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04-11-2020 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Big Stack
What factors do you consider when deciding to check raise a drawing hand? A value hand?
The main reason is as an exploit against players who bet too IP when checked to and then overfold against the c/r. Unfortunately, you don’t find a lot of those players online anymore, at least not above the microstakes. Live is a totally different animal though.

Other than that if you c/r a naked draw, a decent opponent will put you in a world of hurt because he’ll have a balanced range that can call the c/r often enough and then you either have to bet a lot of missed turns or give up. That’s lighting money on fire.

The situation looks obviously different if you have a hand that’s significantly stronger than a naked draw. Even something like AQdd is way better hand to c/r than 65dd on J94dd because you have an additional 6 good turn cards. How strong depends on villains betting range though.
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