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Old 04-29-2010, 10:04 PM   #76
zadignose
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by sheeprustler View Post
where you from originally zad?
New York, born in Queens, raised on Long Island in the suburbs. Lived in New Mexico, Colorado, North Carolina, Uijeongbu, Seoul, and Busan in the last decade.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:18 PM   #77
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
This is why I SHOULD bet the turn. I want lots of hands to fold, or pay to continue. If you say they're not going to pay to continue, then fine, let them fold. Because they're not paying me on the river, but they might improve to take the pot (or they might already be ahead of me).
what am I folding? what am I calling with that you want me to call with? You should either want me to fold or call btw. range merging is a meh

deception for the sake of deception is not good, you have to articulate a range that you want to target, something specific that you want me to think before being tricky.

Limping in just because it fuzzs your range doesn't trump profitable oppurtunities; fwiw I actually like betting the turn alot, for value. but not for the reason you gave
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:19 PM   #78
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

I've been to one of those places
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:28 PM   #79
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by zadignose View Post
This is also an argument as to why I SHOULD bet the turn. IF my opponent never checkraises bluffs me on this turn, then by betting the turn and checking through on the river, I get to showdown at the SAME price that I would pay by checking the turn and calling the river... and I sometimes end the hand on the turn against hands that could have beat me.

As it played out, the one thing I don't want to happen when I play the preflop as I did, is for my opponent to catch something like top pair, while I catch something like middle pair. That's exactly what I got. And I paid NO MORE (and no LESS) than what I should have paid for that exact circumstance.
you shouldn't really be thinking about how much the hand got around reciprocally or a specific street.

If you called the flop, then called the turn, called river, sure you would've lost the same had I had A5, but you gain because my range then has bluffs. Because by calling you keep those in.

you should have a plan for a hand from start to finish, not just individual spots like flop/turn/river. I remember you flatted my 4bet 65bb deep then lead/tank folded the flop, in that spot, you 100% should of had a plan before leading. (and don't call 4bets that deep )
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:40 PM   #80
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

My captain does not even have an avatar
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:05 PM   #81
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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My captain does not even have an avatar
+1 but my captain can outplay your captain
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:23 PM   #82
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by zadignose View Post
I appreciate the feedback, and it's good to consider some of the subtleties of the hand. Still pardon me for being a bit defensive one more time, especially regarding preflop:

--------------------------------
It's silly to get hung up on the preflop action. As I said I won't "usually," or "always" check here, but sometimes I will. As we all should know "always," and "never" are bad ways to think about how to play hands, and this is especially true in the preflop phase of a heads up game. In fact, I've sometimes been tempted to believe that the hand doesn't start until the flop (clearly that's not literally true), and that almost anything goes preflop. Mechanical and consistent play only works consistently against dumb opponents who never adjust and let you run over them constantly. Also, it should be obvious that if, without context, we define the preflop check as a "mistake," it can never be a 3 chips mistake or more. There are 3 chips in the pot, and when my opponent checks the big blind, the flop is more likely to favor me than hurt me. I'll be playing somewhat in the dark, vulnerable to tricky plays, but my opponent will be more so, as I have position. So I am absolutely not giving up much here.

Considerations of gear shifting after a run of rather aggressive plays, general deception, knowing that I will sometimes limp and therefore should sometimes have an ace when I limp, and wanting to play a few small pots on the flop so that my postflop bets have teeth, all counter objections based on the strength of my hand. Finally, if sometimes limping with A5 is a mistake, I don't mind making a mistake that is quite common among many good players.

I give my opponent credit enough to think that simply raising every button besides my crap hands, and continuation betting every flop is NOT going to go unexploited for long.

---------------------------------------------

As for this:



You should see there's a contradiction here. If I consistently played in a straightforward, predictable manner as you suggest (always raising preflop here, rarely raising this flop), then my "tendencies" would NOT be my tendencies at all. Then you'd have to exploit, and your above statement would no longer be true.
-----------------------------------------------------



This is why I SHOULD bet the turn. I want lots of hands to fold, or pay to continue. If you say they're not going to pay to continue, then fine, let them fold. Because they're not paying me on the river, but they might improve to take the pot (or they might already be ahead of me).



This is also an argument as to why I SHOULD bet the turn. IF my opponent never checkraises bluffs me on this turn, then by betting the turn and checking through on the river, I get to showdown at the SAME price that I would pay by checking the turn and calling the river... and I sometimes end the hand on the turn against hands that could have beat me.

As it played out, the one thing I don't want to happen when I play the preflop as I did, is for my opponent to catch something like top pair, while I catch something like middle pair. That's exactly what I got. And I paid NO MORE (and no LESS) than what I should have paid for that exact circumstance.
I will give it another shot
Mixing it up for the sake of mixing it up is a little bit silly imo. You should have a good reason to limp in. If your opponent isn't 3-betting you a lot, why not raise pre-flop?? It is very profitable to raise pre-flop. When you are playing poker you are look for +EV situations, and raising pre-flop is one of those situations. Limping the button can be a good play, but only if you have a valid reason, so far you have yet to provide one. I am not saying to never limp, I am telling you to have a good reason before you do.

I wouldn't worry too much about becoming predictable, if your opponent does not adjust there is no reason to change what you are doing. Of course, against good opponents you will have to keep adjusting to how they are playing. As long as you make the correct adjustments and are always one step ahead of the opposition then you will never be easy to read.

Call me crazy, but I think you should be raising every button, even the crap hands. Also, it is hard to exploit raising every button/c-betting. If he 3-bet too much then he is easily exploitable, and c/r a bunch of flops will be quite noticeable as well.

The only problem here is not many hands will fold, almost 0, and the hands that will call all have you beat. Basically, you are throwing money away. Betting just to charge a very small %age of his range is silly. Also, he may never play draws like this. I am guessing his preference would be to c/r the flop instead of leading.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:38 PM   #83
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
you shouldn't really be thinking about how much the hand got around reciprocally or a specific street.

If you called the flop, then called the turn, called river, sure you would've lost the same had I had A5, but you gain because my range then has bluffs. Because by calling you keep those in.

you should have a plan for a hand from start to finish, not just individual spots like flop/turn/river. I remember you flatted my 4bet 65bb deep then lead/tank folded the flop, in that spot, you 100% should of had a plan before leading. (and don't call 4bets that deep )
Pretty sure you are pot committed here, right?

Zadignose, I do appreciate reading your unorthodox methods for handling certain situations, and look forward to reading your future posts.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:47 AM   #84
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblebee99 View Post
wdwf and i are pencilled in for some time on monday
Hot?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes007 View Post
Lol at some of you guys not yet having a team avatar. Wtf have your captains been doing this whole time? On team TYCO we understand the value of showing our team spirit.

I'm going to make one this weekend, but for right now, I've seen enough Texas sheriff stars, thanks...
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:46 AM   #85
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

if it means anything, i chose my avatar while drunk
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:55 AM   #86
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by Leo19 View Post
Ok lets get this over with
Spoiler:
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:35 AM   #87
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
you should have a plan for a hand from start to finish, not just individual spots like flop/turn/river. I remember you flatted my 4bet 65bb deep then lead/tank folded the flop, in that spot, you 100% should of had a plan before leading. (and don't call 4bets that deep )
I think planning should not be too rigid, flexible plays suit me, and some people may take the idea of planning a hand all the way through a little too far, if it neglects the fact that new information becomes available all the time, and our actions tell a story which prompts (sometimes surprising) reactions.

Now, whether or not I MAY have misplayed another hand (and I'm sure I must have misplayed a few hands here or there), it doesn't impact my play on the particular hand under discussion. I've said most of what I can say
about that hand, and I think I actually laid out a pretty sensible plan for the hand, which didn't get me into any particular trouble. As far as which hands might have been folded out on the turn, you may have your mind clouded by the fact that YOU KNOW YOU better than I know you, and you imagine that no players will have foldable hands on that turn because you rarely will... but there are plenty of players who could continue past the flop with a weaker five than mine, or some kind of draw, or some other hand that was skeptical about my flop raise but will now be convinced by one more bet on a scary turn. I do accept that I was giving up something by discouraging a river bluff, though, so I see your point there.

Regarding the called 4 bet, shot at the flop:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Win View Post
Pretty sure you are pot committed here, right?

Zadignose, I do appreciate reading your unorthodox methods for handling certain situations, and look forward to reading your future posts.
Though I represented pot commitment, I was NOT committed. Again, I MAY have mismanaged the hand in question, but it's defensible. Bitchi min-raised on the button, I raised back with a small pair (it's never been shown down, so I reveal my hand for the first time here), I was faced with a smallish "call me if you dare" kind of 4-bet... suspected my small pair was not worth a shove, but was getting just barely the odds needed to call and try to hit a set, or MAYBE some opportunity could present itself... Then the flop came low and straightish. Though I perhaps should have and could have carried through the preflop plan to give up if no set arrived, I did have some credible bluff opportunity against maybe a non-premium pair that could get spooked that I had caught a set or was playing tricky with a preflop premium pair of my own... and previously in the match I HAD shown the ability to play tricky with premium pairs, so it was by no means implausible... or I could force out what could be high cards like AK, AQ, which probably shouldn't continue here, but which would certainly bluff ME out if I checked.

So I bluffed it for a significant chunk of my stack, put in enough to look pot committing, enough that it should be just as intimidating as an all-in shove, or even more so than an all-in shove... but I didn't get the pot, as bitchibee clearly had a hand that couldn't fold.

A bluff which looks pot-committing isn't pot-committing because it doesn't have the odds to improve regardless of the fact the pot is laying long odds to get all-in. None the less, I "tanked" because whenever the pot is very big, and you're making a decision that could have big consequences, you should allow yourself to think. Just because you have a "plan," doesn't mean you should act instantly, without hesitation, and not allow yourself a moment to reappraise. And, in fact, there remains the possibility that my opponent actually did steal from me with AK or AQ, so I'm not going to claim the absolute moral victory on this hand. I cost myself chips on a risky gambit. Then I managed to get a decent share of those chips back until running into a match ending top pair versus two-pair flop.

Besides, if I wasn't willing to dance on the razor's edge a little (or is that "raiser's edge?"), then I couldn't get away with this:

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players - View hand 667206
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

Bad Guy: $217.00
Hero (): $183.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is with 5 4
Hero raises to $12, Bad Guy raises to $28, Hero calls $16

Flop: ($56.00) 6 Q 3 (2 players)
Bad Guy bets $28, Hero raises to $155 all in, Bad Guy folds

Sure, it wasn't a 4-bet, the stacks were about 50% larger, and semi-bluffing is easier than the play referenced above. But the actual size of the preflop pot was comparable because the first bet was unusually large and the 3-bet looked strongish... and opportunities to attack with the semi-bluff don't come up unless I'm willing to pay and see a flop, rather than give up because I know I'm probably behind at the moment. Additionally, I can *sometimes* shove the same flop with 44, or a hand that was never worth anything like J7, though obviously not very often.

Congrats, by the way, you've managed to get more info out of me than I should probably reveal about how I played some hands, what I held, and how I thought about the play. But hey, this IS a discussion board.

Last edited by zadignose; 04-30-2010 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:51 AM   #88
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes007 View Post
Lol at some of you guys not yet having a team avatar. Wtf have your captains been doing this whole time? On team TYCO we understand the value of showing our team spirit.

Well, considering that most of you guys couldn't even come up with a half-decent name, I shouldn't be surprised at your lack of team avatars. I'm still waiting to see what a hovercraft full of asphixiated eels looks like.
LOL at you having only 202 posts with a join date of 2004. You are even antisocial on the internet, or maybe you just have a life.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:53 AM   #89
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by zadignose View Post
New York, born in Queens, raised on Long Island in the suburbs. Lived in New Mexico, Colorado, North Carolina, Uijeongbu, Seoul, and Busan in the last decade.
Where in Queens and L.I.? I was born and raised in Port Jeff. on L.I. and currently live in Queens.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:51 AM   #90
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Where in Queens and L.I.? I was born and raised in Port Jeff. on L.I. and currently live in Queens.
Screw the Yankees. Go Tigers.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:59 AM   #91
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Screw the Yankees. Go Tigers.

randompokerguy inside.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_L18T9tcic
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:36 AM   #92
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

More like this, IMO:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q3PVn1Th_E

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Old 04-30-2010, 12:00 PM   #93
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Just played my match with OsTornado, was a quick one.

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

ostornadoe: $205.00
Hero (): $195.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is with Q A
ostornadoe raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, ostornadoe calls $14

Flop: ($40.00) 5 Q Q (2 players)
Hero bets $27, ostornadoe calls $27

Turn: ($94.00) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $53, ostornadoe raises to $158 all in, Hero calls $95 all in

River: ($390.00) 8 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $390.00
ostornadoe shows 7 7 (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
Hero shows Q A (three of a kind, Queens)
Hero wins $390.00

Gogogo
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:10 PM   #94
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo19 View Post
Just played my match with OsTornado, was a quick one.

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

ostornadoe: $205.00
Hero (): $195.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is with Q A
ostornadoe raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, ostornadoe calls $14

Flop: ($40.00) 5 Q Q (2 players)
Hero bets $27, ostornadoe calls $27

Turn: ($94.00) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $53, ostornadoe raises to $158 all in, Hero calls $95 all in

River: ($390.00) 8 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $390.00
ostornadoe shows 7 7 (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
Hero shows Q A (three of a kind, Queens)
Hero wins $390.00

Gogogo
FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

i wish AFM would reply to my PM already so we can do da damn thang
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:18 PM   #95
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo19 View Post
Just played my match with OsTornado, was a quick one.

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

ostornadoe: $205.00
Hero (): $195.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is with Q A
ostornadoe raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, ostornadoe calls $14

Flop: ($40.00) 5 Q Q (2 players)
Hero bets $27, ostornadoe calls $27

Turn: ($94.00) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $53, ostornadoe raises to $158 all in, Hero calls $95 all in

River: ($390.00) 8 (2 players - 2 are all in)

Final Pot: $390.00
ostornadoe shows 7 7 (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
Hero shows Q A (three of a kind, Queens)
Hero wins $390.00

Gogogo
The win great job captain. Way to set the bar for week 2.

that I missed the match.

Threw up a little when I saw your painful avatar.

Going out to get some Jack Daniels flavored mouthwash hoping it will settle my stomach
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:21 PM   #96
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Yea it's pretty painful, I guess it will be all the more satisfying when we finish above BB now.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:38 PM   #97
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by Leo19 View Post
Yea it's pretty painful, I guess it will be all the more satisfying when we finish above BB now.
It will be hard to finish above a team that never loses.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:38 PM   #98
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo19 View Post
Yea it's pretty painful, I guess it will be all the more satisfying when we finish above BB now.
The sad ironic thing is, that your win increases BB99's Strength of Schedule (SOS), which puts him top of the leader board

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Old 04-30-2010, 12:44 PM   #99
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
The sad ironic thing is, that your win increases BB99's Strength of Schedule (SOS), which puts him top of the leader board

Definitely, Boviously?, rigged
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:51 PM   #100
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Luckbox imo...
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