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Old 04-29-2010, 04:53 AM   #51
zadignose
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by zadignose View Post
Waltzing through a minefield... or falling asleep at the wheel?

Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Bad Guy: $153.00
Zadignose (): $247.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Zadignose is with A 5
Hero calls $1, Bad Guy checks

Flop: ($4.00) 4 5 9 (2 players)
Bad Guy bets $4, Zadignose raises to $14, Bad Guy calls $10

Turn: ($32.00) 9 (2 players)
Bad Guy checks, Zadignose bets $27, Bad Guy calls $27

River: ($86.00) Q (2 players)
Bad Guy checks, and Zadignose... to be continued
Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Win View Post
Don't limp in, don't raise the flop, don't bet the turn, don't bet the river.
I actually don't feel bad about my play on this hand, and I'm willing to defend, though I reckon my play could be criticised for a variety of reasons.

I think the most easily criticized point is the decision to decline raising preflop with an ace and position, and a weak ace at that. If you'd said "don't usually limp in," I'd agree, but I can't agree with a simple "don't limp in."

I will play a variety of hands in a variety of ways, including sometimes limping a weak ace and seeing what develops on the flop. It might be dangerous, it might give my opponent some funny ideas, and the deception produced by the play cuts both ways... neither I nor my opponent will have a strong indication of what the other may have, or what the flop action means. Still, I retain position, I retain an ace, and I don't play hands mechanically and predictably preflop.

On the flop, the raise makes sense. I flopped good, and my opponent has been encouraged to shoot at me with anything from a draw, to a bluff, to a couple of high cards that he thinks might be good... to a real hand. The aggression I declined to display preflop is now being applied on the flop, with more chips in the middle for me to shoot at, and since the preflop pot was small, my post flop raise is not committing, but it has lots of chips behind for leverage.

The turn bet *can* be challenged. Probably the biggest risk here is that it opens up the possibility that my opponent will sometimes bluff me off the best hand with a checkraise, or by calling then shooting at the river. I'm not really at much more risk than that, I'm getting to showdown in many cases for the same price I'd pay by checking through on the turn and calling on the river, and I do have the advantage that I can at least occassionally get hands to fold that I don't want to hang around and try to beat my fives... or getting them to pay before they miss.

Note that it would actually be difficult for him to extract any more value on the river if he had trips. Because because both of us know I've shown strength all the way, if he bet out on the river he'd be showing BIG strenght, and can't expect to get called by worse than trips. He'll often check to me hoping to catch a river bluff... which brings us to the end of our story...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReidLockhart View Post
Please tell me you checked behind that...
Do I have to?

And when I say "do I have to?" I mean, "do I have to tell you?" Because obviously I have to check through.

Okay, you got me, I didn't intend to deliver the river bluff, and I didn't do so. I checked behind and lost the same money I'd have otherwise expected to lose to a strong hand if I'd played more passively.

I thought it was an interesting hand, one that I don't really regret playing the way I did, even though a preflop raise would have prevented the hand from happening in the first place. But that's one of the risks you accept when you try to see some flops with a small preflop pot and plenty of chips behind. I'll probably find myself in many similar spots in the future.
----------------------
P.S., he had a nine.

Last edited by zadignose; 04-29-2010 at 05:00 AM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:53 AM   #52
newluck2k
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

pre is fine imo, it just depends on how the match has gone so far. Although if hes really been betting most flops oop it might be best to stop limping.

I don't think he's betting the flop like this with air enough for this to be good. And if he's generally passive on other streets its prolly better to call.
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:27 AM   #53
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by newluck2k View Post
crap I just self excluded myself from pokerstars due to finals coming up. Totally forgot about this. Is it legal to play somewhere else?
Stars is the preferred site, but you can use other sites if both players agree. Full Tilt is not really an option because they don't have regular play money HU tables.

If you or your opponent don't want to create a new account anywhere else, pokerth (www.pokerth.net) is option. (Its a free open-source program thats designed for single table SnG's, but you can easily set it up for HU with levels where the blinds are the same all the time.)
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:05 PM   #54
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

zag against standard old me, when you raise that flop you turn your hand into a bluff
and deception is fine but you should pre everytime, I was 3betting a value range against you which was 12% or something and not going to be c/r very light due to your tendencies so raise/cbet is way too profitable
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:12 PM   #55
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Me vs GreenKeeper 2 PM EST tomorrow.
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Old 04-29-2010, 12:29 PM   #56
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcesFullMoon View Post

Oh, and for those that did rail, I figure I should explain my 4-bet flat with KK--the one hand I'm proud of during the match. When I tanked and then flatted, I actually didn't consider shipping at all. I knew I was playing tight enough that Never Win (damned good player) would put me on a very narrow range. My goal was to represent TT/JJ or AK, three hands a tight (bad) player is likely to flat facing a 4-bet from an aggro player; I felt I could get him to commit most of his chips to bluffing me if no ace fell. I'm still not sure how I feel about my river check, as he had to realize I was committed to the pot after calling on the flop; on the other hand, I felt he was probably bluffing, and my only chance of getting my stack in was to give him the chance to hail Mary bluff on the river.
if it makes you feel better i think your flat is probably best against Never Win with no history whatsoever. given some of the stuff we have discussed in the past, I was reasonably sure you show up with AA/KK there almost always - that doesn't mean he thinks the same. but yeah once you get to the flop like that and he bets you should just c/rai : )

Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
chalk one up for the B team
bow chiki wow wow. our record keeps getting sexier

edit: oh and zag i'm not going to go as far as to say that your raise is just flat out terrible, but a call is almost certainly going to be better.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:06 PM   #57
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by zadignose View Post
I actually don't feel bad about my play on this hand, and I'm willing to defend, though I reckon my play could be criticised for a variety of reasons.

I think the most easily criticized point is the decision to decline raising preflop with an ace and position, and a weak ace at that. If you'd said "don't usually limp in," I'd agree, but I can't agree with a simple "don't limp in."

I will play a variety of hands in a variety of ways, including sometimes limping a weak ace and seeing what develops on the flop. It might be dangerous, it might give my opponent some funny ideas, and the deception produced by the play cuts both ways... neither I nor my opponent will have a strong indication of what the other may have, or what the flop action means. Still, I retain position, I retain an ace, and I don't play hands mechanically and predictably preflop.

On the flop, the raise makes sense. I flopped good, and my opponent has been encouraged to shoot at me with anything from a draw, to a bluff, to a couple of high cards that he thinks might be good... to a real hand. The aggression I declined to display preflop is now being applied on the flop, with more chips in the middle for me to shoot at, and since the preflop pot was small, my post flop raise is not committing, but it has lots of chips behind for leverage.

The turn bet *can* be challenged. Probably the biggest risk here is that it opens up the possibility that my opponent will sometimes bluff me off the best hand with a checkraise, or by calling then shooting at the river. I'm not really at much more risk than that, I'm getting to showdown in many cases for the same price I'd pay by checking through on the turn and calling on the river, and I do have the advantage that I can at least occassionally get hands to fold that I don't want to hang around and try to beat my fives... or getting them to pay before they miss.

Note that it would actually be difficult for him to extract any more value on the river if he had trips. Because because both of us know I've shown strength all the way, if he bet out on the river he'd be showing BIG strenght, and can't expect to get called by worse than trips. He'll often check to me hoping to catch a river bluff... which brings us to the end of our story...



Do I have to?

And when I say "do I have to?" I mean, "do I have to tell you?" Because obviously I have to check through.

Okay, you got me, I didn't intend to deliver the river bluff, and I didn't do so. I checked behind and lost the same money I'd have otherwise expected to lose to a strong hand if I'd played more passively.

I thought it was an interesting hand, one that I don't really regret playing the way I did, even though a preflop raise would have prevented the hand from happening in the first place. But that's one of the risks you accept when you try to see some flops with a small preflop pot and plenty of chips behind. I'll probably find myself in many similar spots in the future.
----------------------
P.S., he had a nine.
Mixing it up vs a good player is fine, but you really have no reason to limp in. If he was 3-betting you a ton, then I could understand why you decided to limp in.

The flop raise doesn't make too much sense, you will prolly fold out all better hands and only be called by better. Also, what are you going to do if he 3-bets the flop?? I assume fold.

Betting the turn is a big mistake too imo. Almost for sure, the only hands that will call you are the hands that have you beat. I doubt he ever calls w/ a draw here, he will be very short if he calls and misses, and he may not even get paid if he hits. Also, you don't have to worry about getting c/r bluffed all-in here cause he will almost never do it (you will be calling here too often for this play to be any good). Same reason for why he will never bluff shove the river.

Wise check on the river.......although jamming the river has to make your opponent feel a lil sick since he beats none of your value range here unless he has a FH here, which I doubt.

Better luck next time Zadignose.
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Old 04-29-2010, 01:53 PM   #58
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

wdwf and i are pencilled in for some time on monday
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:32 PM   #59
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by obviously.bogus View Post
Stars is the preferred site, but you can use other sites if both players agree. Full Tilt is not really an option because they don't have regular play money HU tables.

If you or your opponent don't want to create a new account anywhere else, pokerth (www.pokerth.net) is option. (Its a free open-source program thats designed for single table SnG's, but you can easily set it up for HU with levels where the blinds are the same all the time.)
i will agree with this as commish. But in a case when someone has done something which has excluded them from stars well try our best to find a good solution. This seems to be a good one.

If anyone has problems with having to play in this format please pm me and we will try to find a good solution
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:36 PM   #60
KingKongGrinder
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

bumblebee,

Is that the official B Team avatar?
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:59 PM   #61
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingKongGrinder View Post
bumblebee,

Is that the official B Team avatar?
yeah why not, we should have one.

edit: which reminds me:

Quote:
leo19: we obv need some avatar sidebets IMO :-P
bumblebee99: i'll be taking notes lol
bumblebee99: not a chance, you'll pick me some ghey scouse avatar or something. i could be tempted tho!!
leo19: Haha, am I that obvious
leo19: fwiw, me having a utd/liverpool avatar would probably hurt me more than you having the city one
bumblebee99: i have a better one lined up for you
bumblebee99: my team beats your team?
bumblebee99: and loser gets the avatar of choice for a week/
leo19: booked IMO :-P
bumblebee99: done handshake.jpeg
i need to get work on Leo's new avatar

Last edited by bumblebee99; 04-29-2010 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:10 PM   #62
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

maybe it's premature but i feel like our avatar should be something like:

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Old 04-29-2010, 04:10 PM   #63
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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bumblebee,

Is that the official B Team avatar?
I think you guys should use the bee girl from Blind Melon's 'No Rain' music video
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:57 PM   #64
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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I think you guys should use the bee girl from Blind Melon's 'No Rain' music video
ewww. i just seen her.
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:06 PM   #65
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

that is my version of trash talk =P
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:10 PM   #66
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

I thought you were gunna forget about that bet
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:22 PM   #67
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

if you have a team avatar, i'll postpone it otherwise i'm good to go
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:23 PM   #68
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***



The old Jordan F1 symbol. I like
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Old 04-29-2010, 05:31 PM   #69
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

doesn;t convert too well.

how about this:


Last edited by bumblebee99; 04-29-2010 at 05:35 PM. Reason: a bit self serving but w/e
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:06 PM   #70
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

no team avatars, last time I switched avatars, old one got stolen
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Old 04-29-2010, 07:54 PM   #71
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

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Originally Posted by bumblebee99 View Post
if you have a team avatar, i'll postpone it otherwise i'm good to go
Ok lets get this over with
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:19 PM   #72
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Spoiler:


Better than a hole in the wall,oh wait I here you guys are into that kind of thing.
oh snap..
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:59 PM   #73
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

I appreciate the feedback, and it's good to consider some of the subtleties of the hand. Still pardon me for being a bit defensive one more time, especially regarding preflop:

--------------------------------
It's silly to get hung up on the preflop action. As I said I won't "usually," or "always" check here, but sometimes I will. As we all should know "always," and "never" are bad ways to think about how to play hands, and this is especially true in the preflop phase of a heads up game. In fact, I've sometimes been tempted to believe that the hand doesn't start until the flop (clearly that's not literally true), and that almost anything goes preflop. Mechanical and consistent play only works consistently against dumb opponents who never adjust and let you run over them constantly. Also, it should be obvious that if, without context, we define the preflop check as a "mistake," it can never be a 3 chips mistake or more. There are 3 chips in the pot, and when my opponent checks the big blind, the flop is more likely to favor me than hurt me. I'll be playing somewhat in the dark, vulnerable to tricky plays, but my opponent will be more so, as I have position. So I am absolutely not giving up much here.

Considerations of gear shifting after a run of rather aggressive plays, general deception, knowing that I will sometimes limp and therefore should sometimes have an ace when I limp, and wanting to play a few small pots on the flop so that my postflop bets have teeth, all counter objections based on the strength of my hand. Finally, if sometimes limping with A5 is a mistake, I don't mind making a mistake that is quite common among many good players.

I give my opponent credit enough to think that simply raising every button besides my crap hands, and continuation betting every flop is NOT going to go unexploited for long.

---------------------------------------------

As for this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BitchiBee View Post
... I was 3betting a value range against you which was 12% or something and not going to be c/r very light due to your tendencies so raise/cbet is way too profitable
You should see there's a contradiction here. If I consistently played in a straightforward, predictable manner as you suggest (always raising preflop here, rarely raising this flop), then my "tendencies" would NOT be my tendencies at all. Then you'd have to exploit, and your above statement would no longer be true.
-----------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Win View Post
...

Betting the turn is a big mistake too imo. Almost for sure, the only hands that will call you are the hands that have you beat. I doubt he ever calls w/ a draw here, he will be very short if he calls and misses, and he may not even get paid if he hits.
This is why I SHOULD bet the turn. I want lots of hands to fold, or pay to continue. If you say they're not going to pay to continue, then fine, let them fold. Because they're not paying me on the river, but they might improve to take the pot (or they might already be ahead of me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Win View Post
...

Also, you don't have to worry about getting c/r bluffed all-in here cause he will almost never do it (you will be calling here too often for this play to be any good). Same reason for why he will never bluff shove the river.
This is also an argument as to why I SHOULD bet the turn. IF my opponent never checkraises bluffs me on this turn, then by betting the turn and checking through on the river, I get to showdown at the SAME price that I would pay by checking the turn and calling the river... and I sometimes end the hand on the turn against hands that could have beat me.

As it played out, the one thing I don't want to happen when I play the preflop as I did, is for my opponent to catch something like top pair, while I catch something like middle pair. That's exactly what I got. And I paid NO MORE (and no LESS) than what I should have paid for that exact circumstance.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:12 PM   #74
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

Lol at some of you guys not yet having a team avatar. Wtf have your captains been doing this whole time? On team TYCO we understand the value of showing our team spirit.

Well, considering that most of you guys couldn't even come up with a half-decent name, I shouldn't be surprised at your lack of team avatars. I'm still waiting to see what a hovercraft full of asphixiated eels looks like.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:26 PM   #75
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Re: ***bHUNLA WEEK 2***

where you from originally zad?
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