Good thread. JJ is tough to play post flop. If you call pre flop...you have to be prepared to fold to a flop bet because so many flops can hit his range hard...and if he misses...he's probably check folding to a flop bet you make.

So to me...my goal here is to win a small pot...unless I get a flop like J -T-8 rainbow...then I'm praying his 3 bet range included 88,99, TT

lol live players
lol ur a fish

i play at the borgata as well, what limits do you play there? and how often?

Meh, I play limit, but that seems like spew to raise that flop, imo

Anyway, just wanted to pop in and say I find it not unusual that a dude that started a thread about why 2+2 is so negative is now calling everyone an idiot that wouldn't raise that flop.

Smooth calling the flop is one thing. Not betting the turn is horrendous JJ isn't that big of a hand you need to protect it on the turn.

Raise flop.

Intense poker discussion ITT? Lol.

Get to showdown cheaply...if we aren't crushed then vil. has A-K,A-Q and wont call. We dont need to jam this...

preflop: fine (unless you have a specific read that villian only 3-bets QQ+)
flop: fine (you are either way ahead or way behind, raising only folds way behind hands)
turn: BET
river: since you didn't bet the turn, you don't really know if villian is merely betting a ace high AK, or if the Queen helped. I would go with your read that he is a tight player, and since he checked the turn and is now betting the river, FOLD.

Oh.....wow.....just.....wow.....

thanks for all the answers guys.

My read was that he was tight. meaning TT+, AQ, AK. super tight.

For the people who think i should raise the flop, how much would you make it?
I assume you are folding when he shoves correct? if i turn my JJ into a bluff what kind of hands would you just call the flop with if any?

I should have bet the turn. At the time i was trying to think of a worse hand that could call. obviously none should, but i can collect the dead money, and it makes folding the river easier.

I'm torn on this one. Everyone says call instead of raise because "It folds out weaker hands and stronger hands are calling or raising". Ok, weaker hands are going to fold anyways eventually. So unless they improve, at which point they're likely crushing you, then you've already gotten all the value you're going to get. So why not make them go away and collect now and not risk it?

If villain c-bets 40, and you raise to 120, and he folds, you've picked up 93 and you're good to go. You're obviously not folding here, so really it's costing you an additional 80. The thing is, if he's at least 30% to improve his hand, then that's a number of potential wins you've given away. Furthermore, the turn doesn't change anything except his drawing odds. So any hand that was going to fold before, is going to fold now, and any hand that had you crushed before, still has you crushed. The only difference is that 1 in 3times hands you did have beat are now beating you, and you're going to either end up betting again or folding one way or the other. You're GOING to bet the turn if he checks right? So if he's still weaker, he's still folding. If he isn't, you're still losing that money, so why not put it in sooner before a weaker hand has a chance to improve?

If we raise now we are blowing up a pot that we are losing or taking down one that we are ahead in. We have position so if we call we can see the turn card, how it might affect his range and see his actions and then evaluate. If we raise he either calls (horrible spot to be in on turn), raises (we have to fold our equity), or folds (not such a bad outcome but we might lose some value that we could make on later streets). True, he could catch up later, but all these factors outweigh.

I'll pm you every monday 9am sharp and remind you never to come in to the beginner forum.

Ok, here's where I'm confused then: So what if the pot is bloated? We aren't putting any more money in if he calls anyways, and, eventually, to win this pot, unless we check all the way to the showdown, we have to bet. So we either blow up the pot now, when there's a greater chance he's behind and will fold, or later, when we bet the turn (assuming he checks as in the example).

I guess I'm wondering, that if this player is so tight that we're scared to raise a c-bet after a pre-flop 3bet, then why did we call in the first place? It makes no sense to call that with no intention of playing back. By just calling, we've bloated a pot we're now going to have to bet at to win, with a hand that isn't likely to improve. I just don't see how a smooth call gives an advantage to anyone but the villain here.

The best case scenario I see, is that we call, the villain doesn't improve on the turn (assuming he's behind) and we bet and take it down. We profit the same amount with about the same amount risked (assuming we'll need to bet a sizeable amount to dissaude any draw from calling).

Calling the 3 bet instead of raising/folding allows hero to play against a much wider range. Granted if hero has a read on villain that he only 3 bets QQ+ then fold preflop. Most of hands in villains range are only going to improve at least 25% of the time by the time weve seen the turn and river together. Then we have to play poker! (oh noes!! )

If his 3bet range consisted squarely of TT+, then I'd agree with folding obviously. But AK will almost certainly be in the mix too, and he's nearly as likely to have AK as he is one of the overpairs. Put AQ in his range and it's even easier a call. We have position too, so it's not as if we'll be playing blind.

The reason raising the cbet is bad is just as everyone who has a clue has been saying. We don't get any value from hands we beat, and just make the pot bigger when we're losing. Calling to see the turn is much better because we get more information from his turn action than from his flop action. If he checks, we have a green light to bet and probably take it down. If he keeps firing, now we have to consider that we are likely beat.

dont listen to these guys clockwerk, they are the guys that complain when they have Jj and get sucked out on by AK AQ, you can show a horse water, but cant make him drink, they dont understand...it takes experience to learn whats best for your hand..they will understand in due time..hopefully. but anyway OP best advice is to raise your hand to protect it, and to gain information, you dont want to continue in the hand not knowing where your at by checking. end.

Good post.

Terrible troll. Back to BBV with you.

just saying man. giving free cards in texas hold em' with the best hand, unless you have the nuts is brutally bad. your still getting the value out of his worse hand by c/r. your picking up dead money, why flat call just to fold when a A K or Q comes. again makes me laugh

There are three reasons to put money in the pot.
These two are not one of those reasons.

and as we can tell, OP himself asked why he is a calling station, so obviously we ended up getting beat in this hand, doing the exact mistake im talking about...i bet next time he raises

Where can I subscribe to your newletter?

Ah, I see where you're going with this. I guess what I'm missing here is the "value from the hands we beat". Exactly how are we getting this value? In every example cited so far, him betting or calling is being looked at as reason to fold. If every time he puts more money in the pot we're thinking of folding, where do we get this value from?

So let's say we know with 100% certainty that villain has 2 overs to us. So that gives them just 6 outs to improve.

Are you saying that it is better to collect the cbet by floating on the turn rather than raising to give protection on the flop? In either case we expect a tight villain to cbet with 2 overs, then to check turn.

But since the villain's range obviously includes hands that have us crushed, does this change things?

I understand the "don't raise for information" bit, but what about raising to force villain to surrender equity?

Would all of this be different if this wasn't a 3bet pot? Would a flop raise be better then?

I'm just trying to learn from this situation, thanks.