Hi Guys - This is my first post; i have been a bit of a lurker for sometime on this forum reading/learning alot of the information given.

I've learnt alot on this forum and the book i bought a month or two ago - Ed Miller's Getting Started in Hold 'em - however i seem to be having an issue transferring my knowledge from the paper to a poker game (online), i think my issue stems from the fact that i admittedly started Hold 'em to make a quick 'buck' therefore i had no knowledge but basic, subsequently i did win short term but as i progressed i fell in love with the game and now i am here desperately trying to learn all its in's and out's.

When a hand starts if i havent folded it already i easily (and very often) go back to my roots mostly due to overwhelming pressure of time for e.g. i will be holding pocket Jack's in CO and go in with a standard raise - now although i know how to put somebody on a range, i forget, although i know how to identify the nuts or calculate pot odds on a draw, i forget...infact i don't think it's a case of forgetting i believe it's more of a case of being overwhelmed with knowledge and end up combusting sooner than i can think.

i was wondering what thought process people have when starting hands - any hands for this matter; player's who apply there knowledge to games must have a step-by-step process they follow in there mind to quickly calculate what there next step should be, the information on this site and around the world is in abundance but how do people apply it in-game ?

Any thoughts or advise would be greatfully appreciated.

First thought I have XY. What is my position? What action already and who from? Who is left to act behind me? Stack sizes? Then I make decision to call raise or fold. After that there is a whole world of stuff to think about depending on tons of different factors. Just play low stakes and put the hours at the table in, you will just get used to thinking in certain ways, playing ranges, etc. etc.

Have you got a HUD? That helps a lot with identifying how people are playing.

For me, hand starts

- how many players are there (4 handed or fewer and we can open right up with our range utg/btn)
- what's the action so far
- what position am i
- how do the players in the blinds play
- how do the players to my left play
- what implications are there from the size of stacks (mine, potential villains)
- what kind of hands can i play profitably here (can i attempt steal/resteal, can i only play value hands, can i go fishing with a speculative hand?)

and finally

- what hand do i have?

It's a LOT going on and no wonder you become overwhelmed. It's just a case of practise practise practise until you don't have to consciously think to do any of it, you just do it automatically.

Not this:

This:

The reason is all the other factors are so much more important, the strength of your hand depends on these, and there are many situations where your actual holding is irrelevant to the action you should take.

It takes a long time to become sensitive to the other players' tendencies and the table dynamics, and players should train themselves to pay close attention to these things before they look at their cards imo.

This might sound silly but if the information is to much try taking a deep breath at the start of the hand? Might help you relax a little.

There is a lot to think about and you won't be able to do it all straight away, so don't worry if you're not perfect. The good news is:

1. if you're thinking even a little bit about this stuff, then you have an advantage over most other players in the micros.

2. it gets easier with practice

So just pick something to focus on - for example calculating pot odds - and just do that without worrying too much about other aspects. Then after a while you should find you can just do this pretty automatically (because you will have seen all the bet sizes and will already know the answer most of the time).

Then choose something else - say putting players on a starting hand range based on their pre-flop action - and focussing on that for a while.

Each of these things will make you a better player (for example, having a good handle on starting ranges is much better than having no idea of their range at all, even though it is not as good as carrying that through to post-flop combinatorics), and getting each of them down will free you up for the next thing.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the responses guys - I'm currently at work so it's paramount i am incognito when on a forum about gambling (Proxy is v. weak) so i'll reply to all in detail when i get home :~

a quick note to add would be when playing the micros i am generally quite aware that keeping it stupid simple isn't necessarily stupid and i do tend to have my bases covered in regards to playing tight, positioning, pre-flop play etc. and i'm not looking to jump the gun at all as this works and i plan to stay at micros for a good while yet - (most 'guides' or advice given out about micros is not to worry about being fancy to an extent due to the unpredictability of your opponent and the fact they are most likely not on the same thinking level as you) but this doesn't mean i don't want to be learning about this type of stuff! so i try to impement it all the time.

Thanks guy's i'll be straight on when i get home!

P.S. i do not have a HUD yet (however i do plan too soon) :- i only own a company laptop and i think physically downloading and installing a program onto it that is poker related could see me fired, and i would then have to therefore retire from Poker....i'm only getting started!

I do try to take as many notes as possibly and i like to follow villains around to try and study them much as possible but atm there arent many out there that i recognize as regular players.

Thanks.

Obviously people have different methods - i'm not planning to adopt someones method i just needed some train of thought to be able to process my own :~ however at the present this is generally the first thing i ever think about and reading the rest of the reply from jimjamjahaa, i do like this concept.. it may deter me away from getting pocket kings, making a happy mess in undergarments and skipping past Gothninjas explanation of everything else being much more important, which in what i have learnt so far, is very true .

This is an awesome idea - i shall be definately be trying this thanks, it may be a case of just over complication, maybe tunnelling onto one and improving that then moving onto the next, then incorporating them.

Thanks, right now im going to play !

disagree gothninja. Hand ends, new hand is dealt, you have 82o in UTG. You cant help but *notice* your cards first.

Good thread. I was actually wondering the same thing earlier today.

You should already have the beginnings of a plan before your hand is dealt. Who is your target (you do have a target don't you?)? What hands do they play? How do they play them? What hands will play well against that range and style? Will anyone else ruin the party or gatecrash? If so, how do they play? What hands do I want to be playing against them? etc etc etc. This should all be thought out before you get your cards.

OK - card strength is often going to be the most important factor UTG because: nobody else has acted so there are no actions to analyse, everyone else is still to act so you're playing vs the whole table and table texture is not as relevant.

But even then, I might have noticed a table that overly respects UTG opens, for example, and may well decide to go for it with atc with a small stack in a tourney.

Anyway, giving a single example of a situation where your own holding is nearly always the most important factor does not prove your general point that you look at your cards first.

Just saying it's good practice to get out of that habit and to look at / consider all the other factors first - especially when learning.

This, exactly. If I know my target is likely to call when I open UTG and everyone else is likely to fold, and the caller is likely to cbet-fold on the flop, then 82o is a pretty good hand.

WoW! Thats a bit different to anything Ive read before. Can you construct an example (or maybe scr shot a hand pre flop with stats showing) for more detail please Denks. Target? LoL, no. I dont have a target. I am starting to look around the table as soon as Im sat to get an idea of peoples stats, if there is a 56/23 guy there I suppose I kind of think "oooH, it would be good to play with him because he's bad" - is that what ya mean? Is everyone is 10/10 or less or 19/15 or something how would I be able to pick a target? they are all just broadly "regs" in my eyes. What hands do they play? In regular play it would take a while for this infotmation to solidify, would you use general "rules" fish play any two suited, any 2 connected, any ace, any K etc, Reg UTG raises PP's, AJ+, ATs+ etc. like that or something more? How does their range play? What and how should I play against them? No idea. I think I saw something recently that said against fish 2 high cards cause we dominate them often, against regs IP we would do better with SC's because they will pay off with top two and stuff like that. Only just started seeing bits of this stuff so dont know. Looking forward to hearing more though.

Yes, that is kind of what I mean. You look around and play spot the drooler. If there is one, you then try to figure out how to play as many hands against them as possible. But what type of drooler are they? Are they a loose-passive? Are they a maniac? If they are loose-passive you want to play more high cards and less low suited connectors. If they are a maniac you want to tighten up but be prepared to get it in lighter. If they are weak-tight you can play almost any playable hand. Has someone in the middle also targetted said drooler? If so, what hands are they going to 3-bet you or cold call you with? How do they play those hands? Again, this will change the range of hands you will be playing. This is just touching on it, by the time you get your cards you should already have worked out which ones you will be playing and how you plan to play them.

are there any CotW threads on this sort of thinking? Its pretty far removed from how Ive been thinking so far

No idea to be honest, I only use the forums for a poker related social setting

On a table like that, your edge will be small. I'd be finding another table pronto, where there will be at least one fish whom I know how to exploit.
When I've got a seat and the HUD pops up, I review any notes on the villains to remind me of their tendencies and I also look for any "extreme" values in the HUD stats. Every extreme stat indicates something you can exploit.
e.g. high c-bet, low turn c-bet means they are one and done, so you can float.
High WTSD, low AF indicates a station, so get in there with top pair hands and take them to Valuetown when you hit.
High PFR or ATS, high fold to 3-bet/resteal means you can 3-bet light.
High fold to steal obviously means you should raise ATC in late position when they are in a the blinds.

Once you know how you plan to exploit the targets, your decisions become much quicker and easier, and should ultimately lead to maximum profit.

1) Stack depth of all players, is anyone looking to shove? (tournaments)
2) Who the players are? Aggro/passive/station?
3) What is the action so far?
4) What my range is for calling/3 (or 4) betting vs the action
5) What my cards are

Arty this stuff is gold.

Do you have any other 'Indicators' of how people play? Or how can I find them?

And while I'm at it, a list of the best programs to run to review my performance. Or again, how can I find them.

Thanks

Is there a particular thread to learn all of these abbreviations? I'm about lost. =\

Also... What program are you using that gives you a HUD?? If noobing was a pro sport is be kicking its ass.

Hi PeptoBylsma :- for all the lingo and abbreviation knowledge one man can ask for please refer to this thread http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=5988672

In regards to HUD's i believe people use HEM Manager, Poker Tracker 4, DeucesCracked etc.. however please correct if i am wrong as i do not have one of these myself!

If you are JUST starting out, you could go as far as making yourself a little poker guide. What I mean is to physically have a printed sheet of paper next to you to refer too. Have on there basic outs calculations, just bits you can refer too at a glance so you can relieve the stress of doing unfamiliar "mental math" while learning the early stages of the game. Obviously you can progress quickly and not need the basic info after X hours playing, or change it to reflect the new aspect of your game you are trying to impliment.

Download the free trial of Holdem Manager 1. Check it out! It does everything for you.

Here is more info on the thought process...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...ocess-1186588/