I think pre-flop play with 99-QQ and AK is one of the big leaks in my game, for sure. I'm never too clear on whether it's correct to 4bet. I'd appreciate some advice on pre-flop play with these pairs pre-flop.

I'm flatting in this situation but to be honest I'm not quite sure why. I've just been told 4betting here is bad. Most of the time it seems to me that calling a 3bet with 99-JJ just means I'm playing fit-or-fold on the flop, which doesn't seem very profitable since I'm likely to see over-cards etc on the flop.

My 'worst' hand is 99. I think I f*** it up nearly every time I'm dealt it.

- How is the decision to flat/4bet affected if at least one of the villains has a 100bb stack?
- How is the decision affected if I have 99 or TT instead of JJ?
- What about if I have AK in this spot? (I would always 4bet AK here)


PokerStars - €0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: €1.09
BTN: €1.49
SB: €0.80
BB: €1.01
Hero (UTG): €2.00

Pre Flop: (pot: €0.03) Hero has J J

Hero raises to €0.06, fold, fold, SB raises to €0.18, BB calls €0.16, Hero calls €0.12

Advice appreciated.

Your hand isn't the only important thing.

What are the other factors you need to consider?

Stack sizes, read on villain etc.

I'm asking about a standard line though without knowing anything about the villain.

There is no standard line that ignores stack sizes and villains. You havd a 40bb stack who just put in about 25% of it and a 50bb stack who called 20% of his. I think the standard advice is about full 100bb stacks. Here, if you call you're looking at 60bb in the pot and a guy able to ship 60 into that. I think you need a real read not to push right now. This shallow against both of them, commit preflop and put in the whole 1.01 the bb has. You're looking for a T high flop to have an overpair? Grab the slider now. If someone chooses to put a huge chunk of effective stacks in and fold, that's a win.

In all honesty, when I played the hand I called by accident (I have overlapping table and I had JJ on another, I mixed them up).

I probably would shove here against short stacks as I expect JJ to be comfortably ahead of their 'stack-off pre' range. I'd also definitely 4bet AK for the same reason as I'm likely to be crushing AQ, AJ, AT that a short stack fish typically stacks off with.

What about if the villains are 100bbs deep though? What about 140bbs?

Edit: My question is less about this specific hand than it's more about being interested in some advice on when to 4bet. The factors I need to be considering etc.

Isn't that your first question? At a given stack depth, now light would a sane villain get the money in? At times you know a site well enough to predict what an unknown player is likely to do. Maybe not at 2NL but at a limit where unknowns may be somewhat standard. You use the information you have, as best you can. In my limited experience, JJ and TT tend to fold out hands they want to play against and get called or forced to stack off against crushing ranges. The standard advice is about avoiding spots where you're perfectly never good.

Think about how every aggressive action you take shapes a reasonable opponent's range. In the example you were playing stacks where a 4 bet was all in. How does JJ do with 5 bets or 6 bets in hand to ship. My guess is, badly.

If everyone is 100bb deep and none of the players are doing strange things I think 88-QQ & AKo are standard flats.

In this scenario I'm shoving.

You've confused me a bit though
Regardless though you may want to try and answer my first post again but this time with some effort and explanation as to why they are important.

I'm sure I've read that flatting AKo is bad. We need to hit the flop to continue. Can you say why you think it's the right decision?

I don't know what exactly has you confused. I think I answered it adequately. I was asking for advice. You answered my OP with a question rather than an answer to any of the questions I asked.

I don't need to continue with every hand in my range so folding some of the time isn't awful if I call, I tend not to flat AA and KK very much as a standard, A high and K high boards are by far the most likely type of boards and it's not that hard to play postflop and I block all of villains best 3betting hands and it plays ok against everything except AA.

I think against a random at 2nl when you have AKo UTG and they 3bet you should lean to folding if anything.

I would jam in this particular spot vs. an unknown. But depending on reads and stack sizes, it's possible for fold, flat or jam to be the best decision.

You shouldn't really look to say "well this is the standard thing to do with x when I get 3bet" because it depends on so many factors. That kind of sucks because you want a simple game plan but really it's better to think it through by hand, villain, stacks and position.

Maybe try to consider what situations you would consider it best to fold, flat and jam JJ OTB to a 3bet, why you came to those decisions and then ask what others think about your reasoning?

I'm stacking off AA and KK pretty much 100% of the time at 2NL pre-flop and it's quite common that villain flats my 4bet for some dumb reason and we get it in on the flop. Highly profitable, nothing much more to say on those hands.

I'm interested in this. I mean, when I have a read AK can become an easy 4bet against some villains and probably a fold against REGs. Against unknowns, I'm never too sure. Maybe I need to do some messing around on equilab to see how AK does against certain ranges.

Hmm, thanks. It's true what you said about wanting a simple game plan. My problem is I guess it has a large part to do with how well I think JJ does against their 'stack off pre' range but if I've no idea what that range consists of against an unknown I'm in a tough situation every time.

Only thing I can say, treat 99's like 77's and not like 10's or JJ's.

better than 4bet folding

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

I'd have raised a bit more pre, 4bb maybe even 5, because you're out of position. SB 3betting here is representing strength but there are only 3 hands pre that are stronger than yours, where the general school of thought in the blinds pre is to re-raise anything > A10 because they're out of position.

With BB calling behind SB, but being in position with the deeper stack, I'm definitely 4betting here to about 3x the sb's bet - prob round up to .60 - and if sb re-raises I'm probably not folding UNLESS sb re-raises all in AND bb calls.

IMO your flat call here is just encouraging possibly weaker hands to get a chance to hit the flop.

I've started doing this now as my standard UTG opening size. Seeing as I'm running at 11.26/8.53 UTG I'm opening a pretty nitty, value range.

I'm only 3betting 3.06% from the SB and 3.37% from the BB so I'm currently leaning towards folding anything remotely marginal OOP. I often flat AQ in the blinds, which I think might be incorrect, not sure.

You're 11/8 UTG? Should be 11/11 or 8/8 or whatever, but no gap.

I'm probably open-limping like 22-66. I've made a conscious effort to stop doing that.

Also it likely includes some spazz and/or tilt.

Make a conscious effort to stop doing that. Preflop is the easiest street. You have your standard hands you play, and then you have the adjustments that you make based on table conditions, stacks, etc. If you can't fold the hands you should fold, hit the sit out button. If your reasoning were "I made an expert adjustment to the fact that 4 people were limping behind", that's different.

Again with no real world money on the line, the mental game aspect is easier. Add in the entitlement that comes with deciding you're an expert and being stuck a mortgage payment or two, and mental stuff is harder. Don't build bad habits now that will be hard to change later. The mental stuff is so hard to fix, and it takes real world time that you can't fast-forward through by playing a lot of hands. Thus, don't let yourself ever do this if you plan to improve and move up.

As for the tilt/spazz, sure I try to reduce it. I play 2NL for a hobby because I enjoy it. I make a little bit of 'beer money' from it. I don't really have any ambitions beyond that. I know I can beat 2NL but I want to learn to be a better player. Maybe I'll move up to 5NL eventually.

Anyway, I disagree that pre-flop is by far the 'easiest' street at 2NL. There are quite a few instances that I pass on situations at 2NL and probably give away some EV. Fact is, it's enough to 'beat' this limit by aiming for fat value in situations where it's fairly obvious if your hand is ahead of the range that villains are calling with. Tight is right beats this limit and tight means folding a lot in marginal situations. Another fact is that this doesn't make me a better player.

I'm 3betting something tiny like 3.16% and that's probably because of an aversion to getting it in pre-flop unless I know I'm crushing villain's range (eg. QQ+, AK). I wonder if I should be 3betting far often both in and out of position.

I wonder whether I should be 3betting AQ both IP and OOP far more often than I do and I have some grey area in my mind as to when it's correct to 4bet TT, JJ and even possibly AQ.

The street where you can correctly fold 80% to 90% of your hands has to be the easiest street. Almost every time there is a decision, the correct answer is to fold. When you know the right answer and choose to do otherwise, you have a potentially expensive leak that happens often.

But it is. It's easier to learn, less complex and mistakes are cheaper in terms of win rate.

Yes, but beating 2NL for 4bb/100 isn't as much fun as beating it for 8bb/100. You should still look for ways to gain an edge.

Other than AA and usually KK, it's better to be flexible about what you 3bet, base it more on villain, stack size and position than absolute strength. ATo can be an easy 3bet and QQ can be a terrible one, it's very situational.

I appreciate all the comments so far in this thread from you all. I think in general 3betting and 4betting pre-flop is a significant hurdle for many beginning NLHE players and it's why I chose to post it in this Beginner Forum.

You're almost certainly beating 2NL and quite likely crushing it.

You could definitely beat 2NL by never 3betting ATo and mostly 3betting QQ with the intention to GII.

But you can 3bet ATo profitably in some situations...say a guy is playing 60/40 and mostly calls 3bets, you may as well 3bet and build a pot ahead of his range. Or say someone folds 80% of 3bets, well you can 3bet them with AT...and 72o...

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