bluffing is fine at this level just do it right against the right people, anyone telling you not to is ******ed and just slowing your progress

I kind of felt like that was a given but yes thats worth saying. I guess I dont consider cbets a bluff so much as a tool. My cbets usually are semi-bluffs anyway with overs or draws.

I think the best way to sum up how i feel about "bluffing" at these levels is stop watching rounders.

Playing like a nit at 25NL-50NL is overrated... I guess it gets the work done, but if you're not playing 22 vpip or more, you're not going to learn much. Starting tight is good, and I'd say the correct way to go, but if you don't start learning to loosen up here, you'll be wasting your time at 50NL. Why learn at a stake where variance may eat you alive, when you can do it vs weaktight regs and spewey donks?

3betting light

Double barreling

Raising donk bets.

Small 3 barreling vs draw chasers.

These 3 are "bluffs" that have huuuge value vs donks at this level. To simply cbet and give up is very exploitable. It's not even poker. You essentially look at a list of hands to play from your position, raise it, cbet, then take the pot or give up 75% of the time? How is this poker?

LOL don't you hate that. I keep telling myself DO NOT BLUFF at this level and yet my donkey tendencies come out. I'll play solid poker for a couple hours then just brainfart and melt down and do some stupid bluff... (Must be faster learner!)

i like this advice. it definitely makes more sense to me to try these at 25nl than when u reach 50nl. confirms that some of the stuff i've been experimenting w/ lately is the right way to go. the only problem is, it's easier looking back from a 50nl player's point of view. but as a 25nl player, it's tough to learn when no one else is really doing this around you. it's usually when everyone's doing them and exploiting you, you say, chit i better change my game. i mean, i'm not planning to make a living playing 25nl, i don't need to go for maximum profit. i'm playing to learn so i can make money at higher stakes. ro, u typically play 50nl these days?

This is true. I think this is why you should take it step by step... and possibly get a coach, or at least have other players sweat you. Discussing hands with other regs and having some better players watch me play has been very very helpful to my game. Watching videos of play above your level is also very useful.

I play a bit of 50NL; moving back to 100 after my break (I'm on a poker "break" after my last downswing). Running at 27/21, and winning 50bb/100 over 2k hands, obv.

i cant even tell the difference between 10nl, 25nl, 50nl, and 100nl on ftp. The players are these levels are so terrible that if there is an increase in skill level its extremely minute. A big jump comes from 100nl to 200nl imo. At 200nl theres a few people that are no longer terrible. And a much bigger jump comes from 200nl to 400nl. At 400nl you can run into a 6-max table with only 1-2 terrible players, and maybe a good player(!)

This is good stuff but i dont think anyone was suggesting just cbetting and giving up 75%. maybe we are splitting hairs here but i think OP was talking about the occasional "I have absolutely nothing and Im going to play it like Aces" kind of bluffs or the "degree all in moment where I slam my chips in and pace around the table" bluff

You sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

Bro, every time I hear you say something like this, I think about your story from Raze's thread and CRINGE. Please let me know if I can ever bring over McDonalds or something.

I have two questions.

When you all are discussing NL25 here are we talking about FR or 6-MAX? I am an exclusive 6-MAX player and tend to agree with the poster that said you have to learn how to loosen your starting hands. You don't have the liberty of waiting for Class A/B hands in 6-MAX. Now in FR you can. Keep in mind I've only played NL5 / NL10 and some low stakes SNGs (mostly shorthanded now).

Also I was wondering for a person playing 6-MAX, I want to move up to NL25. Due to the higher variance of the game vs FR would you say $500 is a good bankroll to take shots at this level?

Just to reiterate, if you constantly try to run multistreet bluffs at 50nl and lower you will be rebuiliding your roll by asking "do you want fries with that" in no time

6max. $500 is fine.

If someone is dumb enough to constantly run multistreet bluffs when it's obviously not working, he deserves to rebuild his bankroll. Hopefully, we can safely talk about making bluffs here without someone going and bluffing all their money away. And the bluff discussion is mainly for the 25nl regs.

Ro, your advice has been golden. I won more small pots today than I ever did in any one session. And all those small pots set me up for winning some hefty pots, esp. against regs.

I say if you're already beating 25nl, open up your game and try some new tricks.

When I posted about cbet bluffs I was really gearing to beginners since OP seems to be one. It's so standard that beginners should learn to do this. But to progress you have to loosen up against certain players. Ro is totally right about loosening up. You need to in order to get better. Playing like an 8/7 nit is just not getting anyone anywhere. The important thing to remember(again this is geared to beginners since it's a beginner's forum) is that you need to loosen up against certain players and tighten up against others. You need to learn to play against your opponents not just your cards.

Do not bluff calling stations and aggro donks(unless you get the rare ones who would fold to large bet). Bluffing should be done sparingly and you must wait for the right situations to do so. Bluffing only works when the person you're bluffing is capable of folding. Otherwise it's -EV. So for beginner's, until you can get a good read on the players you should just play straight forward.

That is correct, and certainly the idea of loosening up is to LEARN WHEN, because bluffing and playing marginal spots is not easy, that's the entire point of doing it now at 25NL when you're still learning. Playing weak-tight is not hard, and learning to play marginal spots is where your edge comes in.

You're right that in order to play marginal spots you need a good read... but that's what poker should be about! Making reads, using history to make decisions... in fact I would argue that to make default decisions without considering history and reads isn't really poker*. It's just a robotic response that you can script. That is why I think once you've gotten a good grasp on "default" lines with hands, start considering your opponents, histories, and opportunities to bluff.

Don't use a "frequency" to bluff. Treat each decision as seperate, and don't be afraid. Say you had AA on the btn, you raiase, cbet, they fold. Cool. next hand, CO, you have 77, again you raise, they fold. This time on the HJ you get dealt KQs, so for the third time in a row, you raise, and they fold without a flop.

Now you're UTG, and suddenly you're dealt 67s. Do you go: hey, I've raised 3 hands in a row already, I should fold this?

NO! Each scenario is your own. If you can force your opponent to make mistakes by calling or playing back light at this situation, they make a mistake, and you profit! Raise that pretty, pretty hand up, and when they 3bet, and you know he's likely to be doing it wide or light, 4BET THAT FISH (or not, just a suggestion).

Also in my initial post I said '22 vpip" but I do realize that's a bit overkill. I think a vpip of 19-20 is loose enough to not make you a nit, but certainly there are lots of room for optimization. Check out these stats from the other thread: http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3796/25nlstats.jpg (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/32...-stats-462767/)

Sexy right?

*obv it is poker, but you know what I mean when I say that.

QFT

Also, no.

Nice that you're posting my stats :P

I think yea if people want to see how to play looser at 25NL, I linked a 40 minute video to go with it.