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Old 07-07-2017, 08:42 AM   #1
Hdcwilliam
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What you probably don't know about dice

Modern dice are made from cellulose acetate. It may be the best material available today, and there are strict manufacturing processes. This material is used because it is reasonably clear, hard, and less prone to deformation with wear and tear. But it doesn't mean they are perfect. The industry standard is accuracy within 1/10,000th of an inch. Most of the better manufacturers claim their dice meet the standards.

As it turns out, most have an error several times greater what is stated. In most cases you will get dice with an error of about 5/10,000th of an inch. In fact, I've personally seen dice that are as much as 48/10,000th of an inch off. This is just the defects from manufacturing. Not only will you never get a perfect dice, but some of them out there are horrendously flawed.

Did you know just the heat from your hand can double the defect of an unbalanced dice? This is just from your hand. If you have the equipment required to make the measurements, make your measurements. Repeat the measurements a few times to make sure you have it right.

Then hold the dice in your hand for a minute. Repeat your measurements while the dice is still warm. You will find just the heat from your hand has deformed the dice. This is just the beginning.

In my time I've seen some remarkably clever ways players are gaffing dice. Gaffing is manipulating the physical characteristics. I will reveal some of the methods. You wont find them in any books or casino surveillance training videos. That information will be given later.

In particularly LV has some very strict requirements to ensure fair games. That is fair random games, within acceptable tolerances. For Craps, one of those requirements is balanced dice. It's not always actual law, although sometimes it is.

I hope everyone found this information useful. There's more coming.

You'll be surprised how easily dice can be gaffed. Relatively few in the gaming community know about it, and many have a vested interest and don't want to talk about it. Though even if you were to complain about it to a regulatory authority, you'll probably get a complacent response. They dont want the paperwork and hassle either.

I'll get into dice setting (controlled shooting) later too, but you don't even need that. If you know how to gaff a dice, you can readily do it and leave little or no proof you actually manipulated anything. Or at least the manipulation wasn't intentional. On this note, dice setting is not a myth although there are many dice setting course that don't do it right. I'll explain some of the studies, and my own experiences with it another time.
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Old 07-07-2017, 07:53 PM   #2
asymbacguy
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Thanks for sharing.
I'm looking forward to read more stuff on that.
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Old 07-07-2017, 10:45 PM   #3
grando1.0
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Totally subscribed
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Old 07-07-2017, 11:09 PM   #4
Tom Ames
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

I'm gonna be rich!

We're all gonna be rich!
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:52 PM   #5
browni3141
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

This is interesting, but I am skeptical that any player edge could be gained out of it. What kind of statistical bias can be expected from a die being 1/100 inches off?

I'm definitely curious about what you have to say.
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Old 07-09-2017, 04:39 AM   #6
TomCowley
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

This is obvious nonsense (OP would be rubbing his millions on his titties on his fleet of yachts or working on getting there, not signing up to enlighten us), but it's also literally nonsense. I have some cellulose acetate dice, stuck one in the freezer for a couple of hours, and the difference was super-tiny compared to a room-temperature one. So given that's a temperature disparity of at least 25C (40F) and probably more, and even if that discrepancy is useful, it would have to be produced in short order and localized to one side of the die- so if you can somehow liquid-nitrogen cool one side/corner of the dice at the table undetected and get like 1000x odds, you can maybe have an EV of a single McNugget. Can't wait until OP tells us how to find out more for 9.99 or whatever the spam turns out to be.
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Old 07-12-2017, 12:20 AM   #7
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

I sat box for 3 years and worked in the casino industry. It's all crap. You can't dice control and the second a person came up and was next to stick and didn't hit the back wall 1 time, I was on their @ss because you can tell the dice manipulators from the non. Good luck, but you're better off sliding dice or taking shots on weak dealers.


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Old 07-13-2017, 05:44 PM   #8
asymbacguy
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndoBird View Post
I sat box for 3 years and worked in the casino industry. It's all crap. You can't dice control and the second a person came up and was next to stick and didn't hit the back wall 1 time, I was on their @ss because you can tell the dice manipulators from the non. Good luck, but you're better off sliding dice or taking shots on weak dealers.
So anytime the far wall is hit you can rule out a possible effective dice control?

I've seen a lot of shooters capable to hit very softly the far wall and apparently doing quite good.
What do you think?

Thanks
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:04 PM   #9
Tom Ames
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Quote:
Originally Posted by asymbacguy View Post
So anytime the far wall is hit you can rule out a possible effective dice control?

I've seen a lot of shooters capable to hit very softly the far wall and apparently doing quite good.
What do you think?

Thanks
I don't know what EndoBird thinks, but I think I would be following those shooters around. Easy game if there is a lot of them.
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:27 PM   #10
asymbacguy
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

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I don't know what EndoBird thinks, but I think I would be following those shooters around. Easy game if there is a lot of them.
That's the same feeling I got when watching at those shooters. Especially considering they were betting huge amounts on "idiot" bets as the field bet or hardways bets being more right than wrong.
By chance of course. But we never know.
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:09 PM   #11
onguard
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Hardway makes a lot of sense if you do have some control over the dice or a die.
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:50 PM   #12
asymbacguy
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

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Hardway makes a lot of sense if you do have some control over the dice or a die.
Yes, especially if the hardways bet made by some shooters is not related to the actual established point.
Most of the time a 4, 6 or 8 established point is followed by a single hardway bet in a sort of "challenging the unfavourable odds" attitude.

Certain dice setters like to simultaneously bet different hardways bets. Maybe it's an indicator of something.
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Old 07-13-2017, 10:53 PM   #13
EndoBird
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Ideally you're looking for a tumble with the dice. Mind you once any shooter starts to get any sort of a roll, we sped up the dice so we can get more rolls and thus got us to a 7 out much quicker. Once the shooter got his bets, we'd run the dice. If we had a good crew, they'd of course announce "dice are moving!" but I'd be the one booking any late bets the majority of the time. As long as a guy hit the back wall and tumbled, I would never say a word to them. That's including if they fell short every now and then.
We also took improper bets at our house - $5 6&8's / .50 pieces on any number / we'd buy the 4/10 at $10.
We rarely would get hit for any significant amount because no one knows how to power press or take max odds.


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Old 07-13-2017, 10:57 PM   #14
EndoBird
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Quote:
Originally Posted by asymbacguy View Post
So anytime the far wall is hit you can rule out a possible effective dice control?



I've seen a lot of shooters capable to hit very softly the far wall and apparently doing quite good.

What do you think?



Thanks

That's why the gator is there to alter the dice route. You'd risk getting the dice taken away from you and not being allowed to shoot if you attempt to manipulate the dice. Not saying you can't play- just can't shoot.




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Old 07-14-2017, 04:07 PM   #15
asymbacguy
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

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Originally Posted by EndoBird View Post
That's why the gator is there to alter the dice route. You'd risk getting the dice taken away from you and not being allowed to shoot if you attempt to manipulate the dice. Not saying you can't play- just can't shoot.
Thanks for your answer.

It seems you get a more rigid policy than in Vegas, Wynn aside.

Actually I don't think dice can be effectively manipulated, just curious to hear from OP what he has to say about.

However I'm pretty sure some rare dice setters have a kind of advantage as the are capable to lower at the extremes the "two off axis" percentage, for example.
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Old 07-23-2017, 11:08 AM   #16
Pensfan
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

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Originally Posted by TomCowley View Post
This is obvious nonsense (OP would be rubbing his millions on his titties on his fleet of yachts
I don't know why, but this made me laugh more than it probably should have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndoBird View Post
I sat box for 3 years and worked in the casino industry. It's all crap. You can't dice control and the second
What next, no Santa Claus?

Kiljoy.
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Old 09-12-2017, 03:46 AM   #17
Double Down
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndoBird View Post
It's all crap. You can't dice control and the second a person came up and was next to stick and didn't hit the back wall 1 time, I was on their @ss because you can tell the dice manipulators from the non.


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You're contradicting yourself. How can you tell the dice manipulators from the non if dice control isn't possible? Why would you be on someone's ass to hit the back wall if dice control is all crap?
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Old 09-12-2017, 06:08 PM   #18
onguard
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

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Why would you be on someone's ass to hit the back wall if dice control is all crap?

I dont think anybody would argue you can't exert control with illegal rolls.
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Old 09-15-2017, 12:20 AM   #19
EndoBird
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

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You're contradicting yourself. How can you tell the dice manipulators from the non if dice control isn't possible? Why would you be on someone's ass to hit the back wall if dice control is all crap?


Correct. To keep my job. I can't have my boss watching me not enforce the rules to one person and then enforce them to another. I have to be a consistent pr*ck to everyone. I've had to take the dice away from an elderly woman who failed to hit the back wall 10+ times in a row.



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Old 09-15-2017, 12:37 AM   #20
jcorb
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Was lobbing and setting the dice years ago at Binion's from the far end of the table. Made a lot of numbers and my throws were coming up short once in a while. The dealers weren't saying anything because I tend to over tip. Finally the floor man says to hit the back wall or he would take the dice away from me. Heavy into my Jack Daniels I told him he wasn't man enough to take them. He picks up the phone and I headed for the cage. Security guy that looked like NFL Ray Lewis' twin brother sweated me all the way out of the casino.

Was shooting at a small Indian casino on I-40 west of Albuquerque on a motorcycle trip. I like to be right of the stick man but was playing from the end of the table. Point was 10 and I was on the line with $25 and full odds and $50 on the hard ten. Everyone else was playing the don't with stacks and stacks of chips. Put the dice in the V-3 set and threw the best lob of my career. Kissed the back wall ever so slightly and made exactly two revolutions in tandem and came up hard ten. Everyone's jaw dropped, including the crew. Picked up my chips and went to bed.
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Old 09-15-2017, 01:09 AM   #21
EndoBird
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcorb View Post
Was lobbing and setting the dice years ago at Binion's from the far end of the table. Made a lot of numbers and my throws were coming up short once in a while. The dealers weren't saying anything because I tend to over tip. Finally the floor man says to hit the back wall or he would take the dice away from me. Heavy into my Jack Daniels I told him he wasn't man enough to take them. He picks up the phone and I headed for the cage. Security guy that looked like NFL Ray Lewis' twin brother sweated me all the way out of the casino.

That's funny. I've had someone make that same comment or something similar and I dump the bowl on them mid point. If they have any other beefs I'll take all their bets down and give them no action on the table.




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Old 09-17-2017, 02:03 PM   #22
borg23
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Re: What you probably don't know about dice

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcorb View Post
Was lobbing and setting the dice years ago at Binion's from the far end of the table. Made a lot of numbers and my throws were coming up short once in a while. The dealers weren't saying anything because I tend to over tip. Finally the floor man says to hit the back wall or he would take the dice away from me. Heavy into my Jack Daniels I told him he wasn't man enough to take them. He picks up the phone and I headed for the cage. Security guy that looked like NFL Ray Lewis' twin brother sweated me all the way out of the casino.

Was shooting at a small Indian casino on I-40 west of Albuquerque on a motorcycle trip. I like to be right of the stick man but was playing from the end of the table. Point was 10 and I was on the line with $25 and full odds and $50 on the hard ten. Everyone else was playing the don't with stacks and stacks of chips. Put the dice in the V-3 set and threw the best lob of my career. Kissed the back wall ever so slightly and made exactly two revolutions in tandem and came up hard ten. Everyone's jaw dropped, including the crew. Picked up my chips and went to bed.
truly amazing when a 1 in 36 shot happens 1/36th of the time
also lol@ jaws being dropped
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