Thanks Aaron. I was referring to Stephen's statement :
"While it is true that the NanoTech Advantage rewards skilled play (above average score) with +EV only if enough has been collected by non-skilled play (below average score), and this is influenced by the size of the Bet, in practice, even an expert player who could earn an above average score game after game is not guaranteed to win every Bet."

Which, as you write (Stephen lists the bet size factor), only depletes (or increases as the case may be) the probability(EV) of landing on a winning spot via a weighting function f(1,2,3) of the three factors (items 1, 2, and 3 - score, bet amount, and skill factor ) you list below and not any sort of monetary pot. What I meant (my apologies) is that if the machine is in negative EV territory and not enough EV has been collected as determined by the Nanotech Advantage algorithm (the proprietary function f(1,2,3)) , just prior to the start of a new game, you can reduce a negative expectation to a smaller house edge with skilled play, but not ever get into positive EV territory on that game. Once the game is finished, f(1,2,3), is updated and so on. At some point the less than zero EV restriction is lifted as determined by the algorithm, and then on the ensuing game, skilled play will allow the player to increase the probability of a win such that E(x) is positive.

I believe you have this correct. Thanks so much for your interest!

There are really two things at play here:

1) A pinball game for gambling. This may or may not be bad. In my opinion, it's a bad fit with the casino demographic, but I could be convinced otherwise. Note that your anecdotal "everyone who played it loved it" really means little, because the average gaming expo attendee is not the average casino patron.

2) A machine that has multiple states, of which some are +EV. In general, this is not good for a casino. Why? Skilled players win the money from square players and the money doesn't reenter the available pool of disposable income that the casino can win. A casino patron is limited by time and money. When one of those runs out, he leaves. If a patron limited by money plays this machine, then a pro comes in and takes some of the money he left as a stored value to be won in the machine, then the casino is losing on that income. If the skill factor is significant and you can generate a decent amount of EV from it, then there will be vultures or professional players who camp it out. If you cannot, then it's a gimmick that really has little/no actual relevance to the game.

Like a poster said above, is a VP game that returns 94% with a 5% meter a better idea than a 98% + 1%? Definitely not from a casino standpoint, even though there would be plenty of +EV opportunities, the casino makes the same amount of money, and skill is a factor. If you can't see the reasoning behind the above, you don't really have a lot of understanding about casinos and advantage play. Square players get crushed, sharp players win all the money and get lots of comps and free play along the way.

You're thinking "I have a game that's fun to play, that will pass regulatory bodies, and offers skilled players a better chance to win, and sometimes in positive territory, and all these guys are idiots!". I think you should seek feedback from slot directors. Everything you write makes me think you have little/no practical experience with casino operations.

We've received this and many other responses that are built on the foundation of falsehoods (EG: it's the same as VP with progressive). If instead of explaining your position on why we lack experience you sought to understand how the game worked more thoroughly, maybe we could reach some common ground. Are you interested to understand better why this is not anything like a VP with a progressive?

I just have to refrain from engaging in arguments. Especially those that are bordering on insulting. I don't think you want me to insult you, and I know I don't want you insulting me.

Let me know if you really care to know more, and I am more than happy to answer questions.

I'm getting the impression that these guys have no idea how banking slots and vp progressives work, nor do they understand the history of the placement and removal of these games in the casino environment.

If they think everyone in this thread is a dumbass for drawing these parallels, thats fine. But they're going to hit this question during their attempts to get a trial placement, and "You just don't understand" isn't going to get them far.

We have received this feedback on the Wizard of Vegas forum. If you remove the discussion of whether a player is performing optimal play on the game and assume that when the game is operating with a progressive that is in a state enabling positive EV play attracting optimal players to keep other players from playing, during that entire block of time, the casino is, on average, making no profits, and it is like down-time for revenues until the jackpot triggers.

So a progressive VP machine goes into a state of +EV that lasts until the jackpot is paid.

Our game doesn't work like that. The reasons why is twofold: (1) there is no such thing as optimal play and (2) we never award the entire accumulation of positive EV to a single game.

The "skill" component of video poker is a task of selecting 1 of 32 possible actions and proceeding. Skill on our game is something that cannot be perfected as it can on video poker games.

When we award +EV, it comes out in proportion to the skill. Not all of it comes out at once changing the state of the machine until the pot builds up over a long period of time.

Another important distinction is that in order to get an advantage from an edge, volatility is your enemy. A player who has positive EV still needs enough events to reduce the volatility that can interfere with the process of seeing a positive return. Positive EV games take more than a minute as a general rule in our game (by design). In video poker, resolution of bets occurs at a much faster pace. An AP that plays quickly has an extra edge on VP from their speed of optimal play. It takes time, effort, coordination, planning, and dexterity in our game. There's no quick way to make an +EV score. Just as in craps, folks who think that they have positive EV as a result of reading some book and then experiencing positive variance and can't prove it are encouraged to bet bigger and have the money to do so.

In video poker, you can run an app and see whether you are playing perfect strategy or not. You know exactly what the correct answer was and what your incorrect answer was hurting your average return. It's more like memorizing the answers on a test than developing hand-to-eye coordination and skill.

To suggest that we don't understand the math and history behind VP with time-windows of +EV progressives as a reason why we think that everyone is an "idiot" or "dumbass" on this forum is disingenuous. It, in fact, borders on slanderous.

Frankly, I expected more from this forum's members than what we got from the last two responses. Eventually there will be someone who can see that this is not "exactly like VP with progressive" as it was stated on another forum when this exact same topic came up.

Bucking the "inside the box thinking" is what we do. So it's no surprise to receive these responses. But as far as the problems with VP, you can talk on and on about the reasons why the machines come out of the casino, but at the end of the day, the casino only cares about their bottom line. They really don't care about the players individual ups and downs at all if those players are not able to hurt the casino's projected revenues. Such is the case with variance no matter if it is the result of skill or chance makes no difference to the holds. If the game earns more per year per square foot than what they are contemplating replacing it with, the game will stay. It's just that simple in my view.

No matter how skilled or unskilled the players get at our game, the casino will never have mathematical exposure against their set house edge that they selected. In addition, the sum-total of all players will not be penalized for their lack of skill at that location relative to another location that has more skilled players. This is ALSO unlike video poker and other +EV skill games where +EV either reduces earnings for the casino as a result of improved skill, or creates exposure to the casino from a player betting too large on the count on blackjack and turns positive EV into a nightmarishly large win for a player.

Until we have a game on test and the earnings are known, whether it is you or me or anyone else doing the guesswork, it's still just guesswork.

What's not guesswork is that our game returns the house edge that the casino wants and it is generally continuously in a state offering positive EV regardless of bet denomination and it cannot be played optimally (your score is different in each game played no matter how good or bad you are).

It would be nice to see at least some effort at understanding the unfamiliar instead of merely flinging accusations that we don't get simple concepts like VP with progressive or history of said machines being unpopular or "taken out." We do get it. We do.

But please, I'd rather answer intelligent questions than to argue about such things. I honestly expected more, guys.

http://www.trefis.com/stock/atvi/art...try/2015-05-26

Another article bringing some data and facts to the table.

With the passage of Senate Bill 9 in Nevada, more eyes will be on the casino industry in the months heading towards the Global Gaming Expo (G2E).

How will the big slot manufacturers (IGT, Bally, WMS) respond to skill-based gaming?

It's obvious based on the status quo, and games and news we're all well aware of, but what does everyone see as possible solutions?

Maybe if it (casinos) ain't broke, don't fix it? Maybe.

STV

For casino gambling, I would imagine that WMS will roll out physical pinball tables (non-virtual) with simplified playfields in order to maintain table uniformity. Due to their deep experience and very high quality in video games through their subsidiary Midway (ever heard of Mortal Combat?), slots, and physical pinball production, they are by far the best positioned company to take advantage of this bill. Buying some shares of WMS would probably not be a bad idea.

By the way, skill-based pinball cash prizes at designated locations are nothing new of course. Stern Pinball has the TOPS system (http://www.pinballnews.com/news/tops.html) whereby a player can win money if his or her score(s) make(s) it into the top 5 over a given time window (usually 1 month) on a pinball machine at a location where the TOPS system is activated on the machine (a software setting on every Stern Pinball machine since 2002). The operator sets the prize distribution (usually 50% for 1st with descending percentages on down) and then players put money into the machine and press the yellow TOPS button (usually 2 dollars, with 1 dollar going to the pot and the rest to the location owner and operator of the machine). This differs than Vegas 2047 since the games are not located on the casino floor (though they may be located in the casino arcade or game room which is open to persons of all ages), the pinball machines are non-virtual, and there is no luck component (the vig is taken by the operator/owner at the beginning when the player inserts his money to play in the TOPS tournament) as players compete against one another (you cannot earn extra balls in TOPS mode).

WMS, BYI, SHFL, and SGMS are all one company now, just FYI.

There will never be a real pinball gambling machine. Even tournaments require supervision as all you need to do is take the glass off to get a high score, ya know (as obvious as it may seem, it was in 2000 at the AMOA when Ken Fedesna pointed it out to me when Stern was showing their tournament network).

IGT and GTECH are also one.

Global Cash bought MGAM which was the #3.

So the big three now in casino gambling machines, as I understand it, are SGMS, GTECH, and GCA.

They are all pretty busy right now just consolidating (IGT closing the Vegas Office, WMS manufacturing moving from Chicago to Vegas). I know they are thinking about skill based gambling, and they have been for many many years. The question is just who will be able to monetize adding skill to the game.

To monetize, you need people who know how to monetize skill based competitions. This is harder than monetizing chance. (Who would have thunk?)

Skill-based games where the skill doesn't help you more than not playing have been done plenty.

As long as not playing is the better skilled move, that will be the final skill move (to quit).

The kings of monetizing skill based games are truly the guys behind defender, robotron, asteroids, and other skill-based games that disappeared in the mid 80's. And of course pinball. Just that you can't come out ahead (because it doesn't pay unless you sell your games, and even then you need to win more games than you play).

Here's a good video where Eugene talks about monetization in the 80's arcade. Eugene and the others at Williams Electronics in the last 70's and early 80's are our heroes.

http://nanotechgaming.com/g2e2015.php

Thanks!

I really want people from here to come visit and see the game. Last night I had dinner with Wade Andrews who does the Texas Hold'Em Radio talk show. We had a good time. He wasn't sure he was going to be at this years show and I tried to twist his arm.

Anybody who is going to be at this years show, use all the free passes from us that you want. All we ask is to come stop by for 5 minutes and PLAY! We are going to have a GREAT TIME THIS YEAR. That much is not a gamble!

Come on by and have some fun with us! This years' game is going to be CRAZY!

I've been interested in this from day one - not specific to pinball but to skill based gaming in general. Good luck at g2e.

There's a lot of polish in 2047 this year compared to last, but the game has not changed much functionally if at all.

http://nanotechgaming521.newswire.co...ing-machine-to

It's going to be a PARTY at G2E. After a year of talking about this game, we're hoping to have some more folks get some first-hand experience with this thing.

I really appreciate your message, buddy. Thanks a bunch!

Get 1 multiball and then restart the game seems optimal. Time spent going from 111% to 117% was longer than time spent going from 99% to 111%.

Optimal is scoring the highest score possible up until the point that you have a 100% chance of winning your wager.

There is never an optimal time to end the game early besides that, and quitting early in this condition does not affect the long term hold of the casino or aggregate win of the players.

I put a new feature in Casino Kat (our new game) to show you the relationship between the payback percentage that you can receive for a given score value.

I think this will help with some of the misperceptions about how the game works from players and operators not familiar with our math model and the underlying mechanics.

IE: There are no exploits. If you see exploits, you have failed to understand the model.

Hey I saw PartTimePokerPro!

Thanks for all the support this year!

This seems rather radical given that casinos business model is around no skill games. Skill games have the potential to send fishes away when they realize they suck, get frustrated and leave, without going broke. Transparency is the last thing casinos want imo.

Three words: turn skill off

Thanks for the feedback!

N.J. takes step to offer 'skill games' like Guitar Hero at Atlantic City casinos