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Old 10-02-2014, 11:59 AM   #1
AaHigh
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Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVHRAiqjBbs

We're at booth 2712. Professionalpoker visited here and had some nice things to say about our game, and I thought I would share with the rest of the forum what we're doing at NanoTech Gaming Labs.


Last edited by Videopro; 10-02-2014 at 11:40 PM.
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Old 10-02-2014, 05:59 PM   #2
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

I would certainly play that. With the resurgence of pinball's popularity you're in a nice niche. A few questions for you:

-I assume it's cost prohibitive to make a traditional physical pinball table? As a pinball aficionado I'd prefer that, but as long as the computer physics feel fair it's not a killer.

-You kind of hinted that the relationship between the pinball score and the EV is determined by the score history of the machine -- if you score at the mean (median?) of previous scores your EV is (100 - House Advantage) ? If so, that's very smart. It allows advantage play by skilled players while maintaining the overall house advantage. You'd have to weight the score history by bet size, since stronger players will bet more.

-What's next? Where are we likely to see these machines?
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:23 PM   #3
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Ummm yeah, that looks awesome as hell.

Visually it looks really sharp, like new age tech. It looks pretty fun too, it doesnt seem too hard really to build up to what you got to, 101.45% or whatever it was for a little player edge.

Whats a machine like this cost? and yeah release date too
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Old 10-02-2014, 09:51 PM   #4
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

A mentioned in the OP I did get to play this and if felt like a standard pinball experience. As programmed the highest EV is with a $500+ bet.
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Old 10-03-2014, 07:20 AM   #5
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

In before Phil Ivey takes it for a few mil.
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Old 10-03-2014, 08:06 PM   #6
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

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Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
A mentioned in the OP I did get to play this and if felt like a standard pinball experience. As programmed the highest EV is with a $500+ bet.
That is correct. With a house advantage of 5% for a $100 bet and 1% for a $500 bet, the maximum allowable player advantage in Nevada is 15% @ $100 and 23% at $500 and up. This is just to keep things super simple for Nevada state regulations that require a 75% minimum payback percentage.

Between $100 and $500 the maximum allowable player edge is linearly interpolated between 15% and 23%. This is all just in the specific case of the settings we used for the show. As a general rule, the greater the house edge, the less opportunity there is for positive EV for the player. Once the house edge is half the maximum allowable house edge by state law (12.5% is half of 25% here in Nevada) there is no opportunity for a player advantage bet, only for reducing the house edge.

This is all adjustable per menus and is limited by local regulations. And obviously some local jurisdictions do not allow payback greater than 100% as well. In those locations, the game is not advantage playable.
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Old 10-03-2014, 09:38 PM   #7
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Smile Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Film from the booth @ 2:55 to 3pm yesterday.



We had several folks say this was the most exciting and/or their favorite game of the show. We are just elated with the feedback we have been getting from people who play the game.

I will be doing an interview with Wade Andrews soon about the game. If anyone is interested, let me know and I will post back up when I have the date and time.
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Old 10-04-2014, 07:56 AM   #8
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

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Originally Posted by parttimepro View Post
I would certainly play that. With the resurgence of pinball's popularity you're in a nice niche. A few questions for you:

-I assume it's cost prohibitive to make a traditional physical pinball table? As a pinball aficionado I'd prefer that, but as long as the computer physics feel fair it's not a killer.

-You kind of hinted that the relationship between the pinball score and the EV is determined by the score history of the machine -- if you score at the mean (median?) of previous scores your EV is (100 - House Advantage) ? If so, that's very smart. It allows advantage play by skilled players while maintaining the overall house advantage. You'd have to weight the score history by bet size, since stronger players will bet more.

-What's next? Where are we likely to see these machines?
Just a quick reply but kudos to figuring out the model for the most part. Most are still trying to wrap their head around how it works.
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Old 10-05-2014, 12:40 PM   #9
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

I hope you have that patented. It's actually a quite generalizable tactic. You could have the same system applied to any game of skill to transform it into an advantage-playable casino game. Pinball is a great application, but you could also license classic video games and apply it to them.
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Old 10-05-2014, 01:04 PM   #10
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

That possibility was mentioned in their booth.
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Old 10-05-2014, 11:35 PM   #11
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

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I hope you have that patented. It's actually a quite generalizable tactic. You could have the same system applied to any game of skill to transform it into an advantage-playable casino game. Pinball is a great application, but you could also license classic video games and apply it to them.
This ain't our first rodeo!

https://ntek.com/gaming_products.php

We have concepts for many other games that fit into the advantage math model, and it's not hard to imagine there is expected to be an explosion of such games. We do expect to license the math model for sure.

This game, effectively, just uses all of the patented technology in one product. But each patented technology can be applied to many other types of games, both in and out of the casino. The display technology, for example, is expected to be a very big revenue generator and we are working with the world's leading experts on high bandwidth display hardware to push 4K to be an absolutely remarkable gaming display.

This has all been the master plan for some time. This is just our first demo. There is more in the works that was not demonstrated at G2E.

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Old 10-08-2014, 01:43 PM   #12
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Just did an interview with Derrick Oliver-Dewan

http://highrollerradio.net/Vegas_2047.html

I'm very interested to get feedback from high limit gamblers looking for positive EV.

Let me know if anyone has questions or feedback.
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Old 10-08-2014, 04:45 PM   #13
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

I'm curious what the regulatory framework is for getting these approved, and then what's the sales process like to market them to the casinos?
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Old 10-10-2014, 10:25 PM   #14
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

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I'm curious what the regulatory framework is for getting these approved, and then what's the sales process like to market them to the casinos?
All the regulatory stuff goes through GLI. We just had a conference call with them today and they truly are amazing at working on your behalf. Right now they are working diligently to help us get placed in a less restricted environment (than Las Vegas) so that we can prove our approach EARNS.

As far as the sales, that's actually easy once you get past the first unit that EARNS. Casinos are extremely money motivated, and ESPECIALLY if we are offering up guests who otherwise would not touch a (negative expectation) table game in the high limit room and are not betting as big as the casino will allow them to bet, they will be thrilled.

As in Poker, the biggest money will be made from those who are not QUITE advantage players yet, but who are a little bit overconfident of their playing skill.

This is not just your normal run-of-the-mill pinball experience. We have a tremendous amount of technology to enable this as an accurate measure of visceral hand-to-eye coordination and timing capabilities.



The above video goes into some of the technical details of how this game has actually taken about a decade of technological developments before it could be made, and we expect to stay on the leading edge of turning this whole thing into a very legitimate reality, all while the big boys continue with the talk about adding skilled play and cashless gaming, we are doing.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:11 PM   #15
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Here's our day two winner who has a 117% EV game to narrow the gap into first place.



We are working to explain our model a little better and hoping to get some poker players to come in and grok the big picture of what we're doing. Most gamblers, frankly, lack the intellectual sophistication to understand how skill and gambling are independent but still critically important to find the best way to approach this game as a player.

We're thinking that getting some feedback from some super experienced players who seek positive EV experiences might be valuable.
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Old 10-15-2014, 10:21 AM   #16
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

An article was just written about Vegas 2047 on Vegas SEVEN magazine.



http://vegasseven.com/2014/10/14/gam...al-gaming-expo




The coverage that has been done by the Wizard and by this article fail to grasp how we offer advantage play without exposing the casino to what math folks refer to as "pricing errors." This problem where advantage play necessarily exposes the casino to losses is history with our math model.

I think that the number of people that understand the model as it is described on our website is possibly a single-digit number at this point, and at least four of them are employees of our company.

But this is the most exciting part of the game, in my opinion: we are unlocking an entirely new category of positive EV class III gaming machines to be created.

https://ntek.com/nanotechadvantage.php
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Old 10-16-2014, 03:49 AM   #17
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Are the skill tranches, and their accompanying paybacks, going to be explicit a la video poker or opaque a la slot machines?
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Old 10-16-2014, 02:43 PM   #18
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

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Are the skill tranches, and their accompanying paybacks, going to be explicit a la video poker or opaque a la slot machines?
Explicit. Every single point that you earn increases the EV of your to-be-resolved wager. The wager is resolved after the game. Your risk and your pay does not change with increased EV, only your chance to win goes up as a result of increased EV.

In Nevada, player EV can go up to +23% with setting for 1% house edge.
In New Jersey, player EV can go up to +13% with setting for 1% house edge.
Maximum house edge with opportunity for positive EV for the player is < 12.5% in Nevada and < 7.5% in New Jersey. This could be changed in the future, but this is the current design.

This is a major reason (along with longer game times) that this game is designed for high limit play. High limit play enables lower percentage edges which enable higher positive player EV and also more big money to be made from the best players.

The player can also scale back the effect of score on EV (along with the loss of EV as a result of a below average game) smoothly through the initial betting process. Effect of skill on resolution of the wager is an independent control allowed to the player.

Everything is fully transparent from the initial display of average payback percentage as a function of bet amount, to the EV% displayed during play, to the visualization of your chance to win as the bet resolves showing exactly using visual pie slices what your chance to win actually is.
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Old 10-16-2014, 02:54 PM   #19
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Think of every game being a new spin of the roulette wheel and you are betting on red. Your bet parameters (amount bet vs amount you want to win) and your game skill will change the number of red numbers or slices you have on the wheel affecting your EV.
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Old 10-17-2014, 03:54 PM   #20
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Excuse me for not quite understanding this concept, but are you saying that it is a high stakes game? In other words, one will not be able to play the pinball game for one or two bucks at a time? Also, does this game potentially offer big wins to some of those really good pinball players (wizards) out there? I was never a greatly skilled pinball player, but we have all seen some people who seem to have the knack of scoring really high in such games.
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Old 10-21-2014, 01:23 PM   #21
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Given how long a pinball game could last, realistically it'd have to be way more than a couple bucks a game to pay for the space it uses.
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Old 10-21-2014, 11:17 PM   #22
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Thanks for the questions and interest in our game!

The average game time we are targeting is around 60 seconds. For that length, we want to make it both a value to the casino and the player. Think about the average slot machine that costs $1 per spin with an 85% E.V. For your 3 second game time, you're paying $0.15 on average or $3 per minute! Playing our game is not only much more fun, but a better value: with a $100 bet at a 99% E.V. You're only paying $1 per minute on average.

Also, you can choose to win a very small amount from that bet - say only $10. If you had an average game, your chance to win would be 89%. With a very good game, and that bet, you might see your chance to LOSE disappear!

Remember that our system works because below average games seed the theoretical E.V. pot. Above average games take E.V. out of that pot. The system is one that Poker players are very familiar with: players with higher skill have an advantage over, and win money from, players with lower skill.

Keep those questions coming!

STV

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Old 10-22-2014, 04:07 AM   #23
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Does this have NGC approval? When and where will it see the floor?
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:31 AM   #24
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

Best thing to do is follow our progress on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/vegas2047

We've been involving the Gaming Control Boards and third party compliance labs since the beginning. Most of the folks we talk to have been very excited about Vegas 2047, calling our math model, "pure genius".

The next mandatory step in the approval process is a field trial in order to collect earnings reports. No doubt we want to lean on the Poker community to rally to our cause!

STV
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:17 PM   #25
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Re: Vegas 2047 High Limit Advantage Play Pinball

I think that one of your biggest obstacles is the game will need a company or casino employee to explain how the betting works when it when it firsts comes out. While it seems that the best placement would be near a sportsbook, poker room or bar, it might end up in a low traffic zone like the high-limit room.

Will the game have a bill acceptor in it at release? At G2E you bought in with something like an arcade cash card that you swiped.
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